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Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Stumbo, the Executive Director of Pure Desire Ministries.

According to a Barna study, 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women view pornography at least occasionally, with 67% of pastors having a personal history of porn use. How can churches effectively address pervasive issues of sexual brokenness and foster healing within their congregations? Tune in as Nick shares his personal journey of healing, and how churches can create both a safe place and a safe process through which people can experience transformation and freedom.

• Finding healing. // Despite the traditional approaches of using tools like accountability groups and software, Nick still found himself trapped in a cycle of pornography use during his time pastoring at East Hills Alliance Church. It wasn’t until he encountered Pure Desire’s deeper, more comprehensive approach—focused on understanding the “why” behind these behaviors—that he and his wife found lasting healing. His public disclosure to the church body led to a revival of forgiveness and healing that ultimately launched Pure Desire groups for men and women.
• A pervasive issue. // Sexuality is a deeply ingrained part of human identity and many people grow up without proper teaching or guidance on how to handle their sexual desires. This, combined with the pressures of living in a highly sexualized culture, creates a perfect storm for addiction to thrive.
• Addressing the root cause. // Pornography becomes the false solution to a real problem. We all have a warped view of our own identity and value and worth, and as a result, we have a warped view of who God is. Brokenness from past trauma or pain or lies we believe about ourselves stems from our early years. These emotional and psychological aspects of sexual brokenness need to be addressed for true healing to occur.
• The church’s key role. // Churches often outsource healing in the area of sexual brokenness, encouraging individuals to seek professional counseling rather than providing support within the church. However, Nick believes that churches can and should play a key role in providing healing through small group-based ministries. The church, as a body of believers, is uniquely equipped to offer a safe space where people can share their struggles, find support, and experience long-term transformation.
• Create a safe place. // Creating a culture of grace within the church is critical if we are going to shift the narrative surrounding sexual brokenness away from shame and secrecy and towards openness and support. Churches must become a safe space where people can confess their struggles without fear of condemnation. Leaders and staff may also feel pressured to present themselves as perfect. Rather than waiting until a crisis arises, begin creating a culture where issues of sexuality and pornography are discussed openly and regularly, without judgment. Provide opportunities for your staff to be discipled and pursue healing in this area as well.
• Create a safe process. // Pure Desire Ministries can help churches provide clear pathways for people to get help, such as offering group ministries that focus on long-term recovery. Men and women can walk through a structured healing process, unpacking their personal stories and addressing deep-rooted issues of identity and worth.

Visit Pure Desire Ministries at puredesire.org to find local groups, purchase the Sexual Integrity 101 course, or see how your church can get involved. Plus download the free ebooks for 5 Steps to Freedom from Porn and 7 Keys to Understanding Betrayal Trauma.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is a topic that I know that people in your church are wrestling with. I know people on your team are probably wrestling with. It’s the kind of thing that we maybe don’t want to talk about, but we really should be talking about.

Rich Birch — Super excited to have Nick Stumbo with us. He is a third generation pastor, started his ministry career at East Hills Alliance Church in Washington state. He served as the lead pastor for more than a decade, observing the fallout of sexual brokenness and devastation in the lives of the men and women in his church.

Rich Birch — Confronted with his own addiction to pornography, Nick and his wife found hope and healing through counseling and group ministries of Pure Desire, and it radically changed their lives. Really looking forward to this conversation. His public disclosure to the church body led to a revival of forgiveness and healing that ultimately launched Pure Desire groups for men and women. Nick has stayed connected to Pure Desire and today serves as executive director. Nick, I am so glad to have you here today. Welcome to the show.

Nick Stumbo — Yes, thank you. So glad to be here.

Rich Birch — Okay. Fill in the picture there a little bit. If there’s, you know, what, what did I miss? How, how, how else do I want to, uh, you know, if people bump into you on the road, what, do what do you, what do you want to know about Nick Stumbo?

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, I think it’s so crucial that the ministry I get to help lead is the ministry that changed my life.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Nick Stumbo — Because my wife and I were really on the brink of of divorce because of my binge/purge issues with pornography. And I always like to clarify that like many, I think sincere Christian men, I believed my own lies. I believed that, okay, that time was the last time. I’m never going to go back to pornography. I’d apologize to my wife. I would own it. You know, I had accountability software. I did all the things that my Christian upbringing had taught me to do about this subject, and yet I would still find myself going back. And you just, you feel like you’re stuck in this cycle that you can never break out of until we found Pure Desire Ministries and really found ah still a very deeply biblical approach, but with a a much different angle than anything we knew before.

Nick Stumbo — And the way that that transformed our marriage and and my life is what led to, you know, the steps we took with our church and then ultimately becoming a part of the ministry was just seeing that there is real healing, that that Christ does set people free. But sometimes the answers we’ve given in the church are what I describe as being too thin. I mean, they’re they’re very true. Read your Bible and pray and trust God and confess. And all those things are vital elements.

Nick Stumbo — But what we have so often missed is the “why” question. Why do I keep going back to this thing? And when you understand the why, when you understand some of the deeper parts of your soul and your heart and your mind that need to be renewed, it’s a life-changing process. So I think that’s kind of filling in the blanks. It’s like, this isn’t just a job or another ministry. It’s a passion that we’re living. And then getting to see other people find freedom from something they’ve believed, maybe for decades. Well, this is this is the thorn in my flesh, right? This is the, all well, all guys struggle a little bit, don’t they? So I guess it just, it is what it is. It’s like, no, when when Christ said that we could be free, He meant it and we really can experience it um as we walk this road.

Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I don’t think there’s anybody that’s listening in today that’s like, oh, that I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is you know not an issue, but there’s some really compelling statistics. You did a study with Barna that reveals that 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women view pornography, at least occasionally. And something like two thirds of pastors have a history with pornography, nearly 20% are still struggling, something like that.

Nick Stumbo — Yep, yep.

Rich Birch — Not, not… ah yeah This a pervasive issue. Let’s start with, from your perspective, why is this issue so pervasive even within the church? Like why why is this why does this seem to be one of those struggles that’s like defining our age?

Nick Stumbo — Yeah. Well, I think one of the pieces we often miss is just the origin of this is not sin. You know, the origin of this is we are sexual beings made in the image of God as sexual beings. You know, male and female, he created us. And in that sexuality, our male and female-ness is tucked the image of God, that we’re image bearers of God, even in our gender and our sexuality.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — And so it makes absolute sense that the enemy of our souls would want to get to the very core of our sense of identity and who God made us to be and create brokenness.

Nick Stumbo — And so what we like to bring up is that there’s not just a few people that struggle with some sexual addiction, but that we all have been born into a sinful world. We’ve had things done to us or by us that often are not discussed. And so ah what I find is so common in churches and Christian homes, and I mean, it’s my own story, is we just don’t talk about this topic. We don’t know how to address it. And yet everybody is a sexual being experiencing some level of fallenness in their sexuality.

Nick Stumbo — And so you ask, why do we struggle? It might be similar to if we said, you know, what if parents never taught their kids like just how to eat, like when to eat, what foods are good, what foods are bad. And just from day one, we just kind of left the fridge open and said, well, eat what you want, when you want, you know, and then if they got into their twenties and they had terrible eating habits. We’d say, well, well yeah, and no one ever trained them how to how to eat well, how to be a healthy human being. And yet that’s almost exactly what we’re doing in our sexuality.

Nick Stumbo — We’re all born into it. We all have desires and longings and hormones and and things that that God gave us and that Satan and sin have twisted. And if we haven’t been discipled, If we haven’t been trained, if we haven’t been given opportunities to learn and grow, then we’ve gotten stuck in some really unhealthy patterns. And for all that we know about Christ and the gospel and the truth, if that area of our life hasn’t been touched by others who helped train and disciple us, I think we shouldn’t be surprised that people are struggling.

Nick Stumbo — So it’ it’s really, I think, a combination of all those things, a lack of conversation, a lack of training, and just the reality that sexuality is a part of our human experience. And then maybe you add to that the fourth component that we’re we’re living in such a sexualized culture that if you put you know immature, and if I could use that word about our sexuality, we’re often immature in our thinking, immature Christians into a world that is just overrun by sexuality. Well, of course we’re going to struggle.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Of course.

Nick Stumbo — Because we haven’t really ever learned or been taught a better way.

Rich Birch — Yeah, well, I we’re already hearing a little bit of where I think Pure Desire, you know, your ministry has a, I think, a really healthy and, you know, so maybe a slightly different approach to this area than than we’ve maybe seen traditionally. But, you know, you talked about at the beginning that you found that, you know, Pure Desire had a unique angle that, you know, maybe other ministries or other approaches or maybe just our traditional approach was too thin. How does Pure Desire help in this situation? How can you either help an individual or help a ministry that’s that’s trying to wrestle with these issues?

Nick Stumbo — Yeah. Well, I think some of my own story plays into that. You know, as I mentioned, I was doing the things the church taught me to do. In college I had an a men’s of accountability group where every week we would meet together. And, and I think this is really common in churches and kind of say, are you struggling? You know, did you have a bad week? Did you relapse? Did you look at pornography? You know, someone said no. We’re like, Hey, great job. Keep it up. And if someone said, yeah, I had a bad week, like, man, we’re so sorry. We pray for you.

Nick Stumbo — And when you think about that environment, while it it is wonderful and appropriate to have other men or women in our lives that can ask us the hard questions, it really is very performance-based and very much sin management. Did you do the thing this week that you don’t want to do? And if you did it, try harder not to do it this week.

Nick Stumbo — But what is so often ignored, um and what I didn’t see in those days of weekly accountability and all the steps I was taking to be free, was what were the deeper issues that were driving my use of pornography? Like, why was I going to that? And I think that’s what’s made Pure Desire’s approach so revolutionary is understanding that pornography is not necessarily the problem.

Nick Stumbo — It is a problem, but in our lives, it’s not the problem. That pornography is the symptom of much deeper issues. And I think that’s where we start to see the commonality for, whether you’re a Christian or a non-Christian, is we all have a little bit of a warped view of our own identity and value and worth. And because of that, we have a warped view of who God is. And there is parts of our brokenness that because of past trauma or pain or just lies that we believe about ourselves that come out of our early years.

Nick Stumbo — I mean, I’ve I’ve done groups with like hundreds of men now and I think every one of them has some version of the lie of believing I’m not good enough. Do I have what it takes? Do I measure up as a man? Maybe I’m not, I’m not a real man. I’m not good enough. And and that comes from experiences that we’ve had in life as a child and our growing up years. And what happens with those lies, those core beliefs that we’re carrying around is we need to have an answer to them. And of course the right answer is understanding who we are in Christ and in God.

Nick Stumbo — But the challenge is those lies have been rooted in our soul through experiences and through negative relationships or things that happen to us. And when we just preach at it or or throw a verse at it or pray about it, that tends to be a very cognitive response to something happening deeper in our soul.

Nick Stumbo — And so if we cannot understand why I go to pornography, because pornography becomes a false solution to a real problem. Because in a moment, for all of us, whether it’s pornography or fantasy or acting out in any kind of sexually compulsive behavior, for a moment, those lies get answered.

Nick Stumbo — We feel valued. We feel seen. We feel heard. We feel important. We feel wanted. And even if it’s followed a few moments later by guilt and shame, our brain, as God designed it, latches on to that feeling of being good enough and says, man, that reward was worth it. Because it was answering my my deeply held questions. So what we try to help people see is that, yes, pornography is a problem, but actually in your life, it’s functioning as a pseudo-solution. And if we can help you get into some of that deeper stuff of why you go there, and and then learn how to have real accountability…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …which isn’t just telling other people ask me how I’m doing, but is saying I’m learning to be accountable to other people by having commitments that I’m following through on. I’m taking responsibility for my own journey, and not just telling people to check in on me, ah then healing and transformation really can be possible.

Nick Stumbo — And I think what what also goes with that is you start to talk about, you know, soul lies and understanding where we need to experience God and and relearn some of those negative messages. You see how it can be a long process. You know, we’re talking about transform. One of the things we say at Pure Desire is we’re not here to change a behavior. We’re here to change the way you do life.

Nick Stumbo — And changing the way you do life, you know, for any one of us, like that takes work and effort and consistency.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — And I think it’s an area where churches have been challenged because, you know, we want to have a great men’s weekend and talk about pornography and, and men confess and we’re all like, man, and God forgives. And it’s awesome. It is. I’ve been in some of those experiences, but then we kind of send men home, or women, you know, women can have similar experiences and we’re like, all right, thumbs up. We did it. We dealt with that.

Rich Birch — Right. Check that off.

Nick Stumbo — But if we’re talking about changing the brain…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Nick Stumbo — …like this is going to be a long process.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And churches, I think need to um embrace that as part of a healing structure in their church.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I think that’s ah what a fresh perspective, and I think a realistic perspective. If you’ve walked with anyone who has struggled in this area, you realize this is true. And there’s like an interesting vicious loop there, you know, I’ve seen…

Nick Stumbo — Yes.

Rich Birch — …of like people look for some sort of quick fix and they think they’ve had, they found it and they find the quick fix, but then that doesn’t work over time. And then there’s more shame and more hiding and more, you know, and it it just keeps going on.

Rich Birch — One of the things it’s, um one of the things that I see about Pure Desire, just as a learning about you kind of from the outside looking in, it really appears like you um have a belief that really the the healing, this process should be local church centered, that really the local church offers a unique kind of angle on this and help towards this. What are some steps that church leaders could take to really kind try to create a supportive environment where this these issues are acknowledged and addressed?

Rich Birch — Because I feel like this is one of those areas where we we all know that this is out there, but maybe it’s not just not coming up in conversation. So help me understand, what could we do as a church to try to be the kind of place where, hey, you know we’re a supportive environment that people would actually be willing to even talk about it.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, yeah, I love that. And we truly believe that the church is the context where healing takes place. And unfortunately, too many churches have outsourced healing in this area. Because it feels too big, it feels too messy. It’s like, you know, go see a counselor, go see a professional, get help and come back when you’re better. And we might not say it that way, but I think that’s the feeling people get is my church doesn’t know how to handle my issues. I have to go somewhere else to get healing.

Nick Stumbo — And yet we have seen so consistently that what creates healing is walking through a transformative experience with a small group of other people who are committed to you, committed to the process, and committed to their own healing. And as men and women walk in that small group environment, and for us it’s a period of eight to ten months that those groups take…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Nick Stumbo — …to really help someone process all of the different steps and stages. That’s where they start to find traction and healing. And and they also find relationships with other men or other women at a level they’ve never had before. Because not only did they tell someone their secrets in kind of like a confessional moment…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …but then they kept walking with that person through the healing process. So so when you think about like a safe confidential small group environment, like what better place than the body of Christ?

Rich Birch — Right. Amen. Yeah.

Nick Stumbo — Author Sam Black, who wrote the book, The Healing Church, and is a part of Covenant Eyes, he says that you know churches really need to think about being a safe place and having a safe process.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — And I think those are probably the two primary components for churches to think about, and they really have to go in conjunction. How do we be a safe place? How do we create an atmosphere where we really express to people, it is okay to be a sexual being with brokenness and come to our church and ask for help.

Nick Stumbo — Like and and one of the primary things I communicate to pastors in churches where we need to shift our language there is to stop talking about pornography like “those people”. You know “If a few of you…”

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Nick Stumbo — You know if anyone in our church has a sexual addiction, like raise your hand. Like right?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Nick Stumbo — Nobody wants to be part of that club. And we treat it like, well, there’s there’s maybe a few people that need to be helped. And yet as the data with the Barna report so clearly shows, a majority of people in church would say, I have an unresolved struggle with pornography.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — So how do we change our language to say all of us are sexual beings? All of us need to be trained and discipled. We’ve all got room to grow. And so we have a program to help all of us learn and and walk in a healthier way of freedom.

Nick Stumbo — And just and then continuing to say that as a church, because I I think what we’re up against, and I mentioned it earlier, is this has been such a taboo topic for so many churches.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — It’s like, we maybe mention it once a year in kind of like a sex is for marriage kind of sermon, and we we prep it weeks ahead, and we’re like, don’t bring your kids, and this is gonna be PG-13.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like, we make it so weird and different…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …that it almost amplifies the problem…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …to feel like we really don’t know how to talk about this. But if we’re regularly you know mixing into our sermons and our talks and our communication, like including sexuality is one of the areas we might be struggling with brokenness and saying…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …and and we are so ah here for you in that area. So how do we create that culture of grace? How do we create that safe place where people know my church helps people in this area?

Nick Stumbo — Because when someone hits their moment of crisis, you know, that’s what we find people are usually going to reach out. You know, we know we should be proactive. We know we should deal with this earlier. But frankly, many people wait until she catches him with something on his phone. He catches her in an emotional, you know, texting affair with someone else. Like stuff blows up. And in that moment, the question is who will they reach out to? Because if they haven’t consistently heard and seen that your church offers help in this area, I can tell you they’re not going to reach out to a church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And what we find when people come to us is they don’t know anyone. They’re like, we don’t even know where to go with this problem because nobody talks about it.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — So I think that’s step one, being that safe place that when, when people hit a crisis moment, or they catch their teenager, you know, looking at something on their smartphone or like. I remember our church talking about this.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — I remember that they help people. So you’ve been a safe place, but then you have to have a safe process.

Rich Birch — Right

Nick Stumbo — It’s like, well, what do we actually do to help you, right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — We can’t just talk about it and then say, now go get better. And that’s where Pure Desire can come alongside a church and help create a group-based ministry that is lay leader led. It’s not meant to be led by the pastor or a professional counselor. We’re here to equip volunteers that have a passion for this ministry to facilitate the groups. And it doesn’t even need to be Pure Desire, but it’s that idea of when people come to us and say, we need help, that we don’t just say, oh, go see a counselor.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And counselors are valuable and counselors have a role to play…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …because they do have expertise to walk into our story. But really that healing experience is going to be community-based. It’s going to be peer-based…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …and the church is the place for that. So how could you develop a process when someone does, they see you’re a safe place and they raise their hand and they I mean they’re not going to raise it publicly…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …but they maybe send a private email or text to a pastor and say, Hey, I I need help…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo —…for the pastor to say, hey, our men’s groups are on this night. Our women’s groups meet on this night. Here’s the contact. They’re gonna walk you through how to get started. Well, now you you can be a healing church.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Nick Stumbo — Because you’ve got not only a safe place for people to come forward, but then a safe process to engage them in…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Nick Stumbo — …that doesn’t just involve sending them away to a professional counselor.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Nick Stumbo — And and we’ve just seen when churches are equipped, man, the impact they can make in their community really is phenomenal.

Rich Birch — Love it. Now I know there’s like a ton and you offer a lot of training and resources around this. So it’s a little bit of an unfair question, but like, can you give us a peek up under the hood a little bit on those groups? Can you unpack what it looks like in both practice, in in both the individual and group settings? Like what does that, what’s that actually look like? I get it’s 8 to 10 months. Give us a sense of kind of some of the telltale signs. And again, I realize that there’s a ton of training that you do. So obviously it’s again, it’s unfair, but give us a sense, a little bit of a peek into what that looks like.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah. I think for us, it’ it is really key to see that we want to treat sexuality as a people problem. Too often churches still want this to be a man’s problem. But as the data shows, 40% of women in church say, I have struggles with pornography. And in fact, if you look at younger women, Gen Z and millennials, it’s 64% and 62% of women…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Nick Stumbo — …say on some level, I’m viewing pornography.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Nick Stumbo — So that’s that’s a big part of what we do is we say this is a people problem, not a men’s problem.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — And we also acknowledge that if this is happening in a marriage, there are two people being impacted. And those two people both need help, but they need very different help. The one who’s been struggling needs it to go on a recovery journey, to overcome their behaviors, to learn what’s driving them to it, to develop healthy patterns moving forward.

Nick Stumbo — But that betrayed spouse is hurting. They’re wondering what to trust. They’re wondering what they did wrong. I mean, there are all kinds of questions. And if we only help the struggler, we can almost communicate a double shame message to that spouse who feels like, what did I cause this? Can I fix it? And they just feel isolated and alone.

Nick Stumbo — And so that’s why we have groups for men who struggle. And groups for women who struggle. And then we have groups for men who are feeling that on the betrayal side and for women who are betrayed. Because when a couple can walk through some healing together, have a supportive group around them in their journey, that we have found is the best recipe for the marriage ah to succeed long term.

Nick Stumbo — And so, the The materials are you know they’re there it’s not only group-based, but there are actual materials that people walk through. And I think it’s one of the uniquenesses that sometimes ah groups at church can be like a book study.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like we we just come together to talk about a book and and we then we go home and don’t really do much with it. What you’re doing in a Pure Desire group is you’re doing your own work to really unpack and understand your own story. You’re writing out during the week answers to these questions.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — And then when you come to group, you’re not necessarily talking about the book as much as you’re answering questions about your life. In in a safe, programmed kind of way, you’re learning how to unpack everything and share openly by simply reading what you wrote.

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Nick Stumbo — And it’s that interaction as I do that and someone else does that that, you know, we’re not just there shooting from the hip about, well, here’s what I think about sexuality or here’s what I… No, you’re actually saying, here are, here in my life, some of the the worst moments that I had as a child and here are the messages I remember believing after that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Man, and you share that, and then someone else does, and someone else does like, the eye-opening kind of light bulb moments that come as I tell parts of my story out loud that I’ve I’ve never really connected the dots to how much they’ve impacted my way of seeing myself and God and others, it’s it’s transformational.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — So group-based but also curriculum-based and really rooted around doing my own work and then bringing that work to the group in a safe environment to share things that I really need to have others hear. And then when I share those things and I’m accepted, I’m valued, I’m affirmed. That’s what really begins to change those negative messages that have been taking us to pornography all along.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Nick Stumbo — So it’s it’s very relational, it’s very meaningful. And I think what surprises people, I mean, this was my reaction too. In some of the lessons, people are surprised how little we talk about sexual brokenness or pornography. It’s like, well, you know, I thought we were here to fix our porn problem.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Nick Stumbo — It’s like, yeah, we are. But the problem again is the symptom and what we’re going after in group is the roots.

Nick Stumbo — And so some of the lessons I’ll tell people like upfront, you may not completely understand right away how this connects, but trust the process. Trust that this has been, you know, tried and it’s become tried and true material over 25 years. And it’s leading you to a place of understanding and recognition. And because we need to recognize part of the reason I’m stuck is I can’t see what I can’t see.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like part of why I continue to struggle is because I can’t see the things that have been tripping me up and I’ve got these blind spots.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — And if I just assume like, well, I know how to manage my own recovery. I know what I need. We’re probably just going to keep stuck in that same cycle.

Rich Birch — Right. Just end up right back there.

Nick Stumbo — But if, if we’re willing to trust a process to say, we’re going to help you unpack and unlearn some things that you maybe didn’t even know you needed to unlearn. That’s where it becomes life changing. So its ah, yeah, and we provide leader training. We provide tons of support around frequently asked questions and issues that come up in group.

Rich Birch — Yep. Love it.

Nick Stumbo — And you know what if someone has a legal issue? Like we get that sexuality gets messy…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …and it might be something that’s new for you or your group or your church, but we’ve handled it before.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And we can answer the question, and we’re here to be the coach, the guide, the friend that empowers you to do the ministry in your church. And so that’s a little bit more about our approach of working with churches.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So let’s pivot to maybe think about the same issue, but from just a slightly different lens. You know, let’s say I’m a leader, I’m maybe an executive pastor on team at a church, and I want for my staff team, I want to be the kind of place where people can raise their hand and say, hey, I’m I’m struggling with this.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And and I want us to be that. I’m not entirely sure how to do that. I think there’s an interesting kind of dual pressure in our culture that’s like set up to just make failure happen.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Which is, you know, there’s like a spectrum of decisions that people will make. They’ll make somewhere on the end of the spectrum is like silly, foolish, unwise. And then you you step over sinful. And then it goes from sinful to like, you know, really like terrible sin and then like ultimately like antichrist, like this person’s like evil.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And, but what I, it seems like what happens when people um confess a sin in this area, oftentimes we can treat them with, um you know, they just become canceled. We just flush them out.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And then I think what happens is people watch that and then then we all just stuff our issues down.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — We’re like, well, I know what I learned from this experience is don’t ever raise your hand.

Nick Stumbo — Because that got that guy kicked out.

Rich Birch — So what can we do for our teams? Yeah, that guy, that guy got kicked out. So how do we create cultures with, particularly with our staff teams where people can raise their hand and, or we talk about these things in a way that, you know, it’ll, it kind of creates the kind of culture, particularly with the people that work for us.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, that’s a great question. And I believe one of the items we miss is that men and women who enter into full-time ministry are still men and women who have a story…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — …who are on a journey towards Christ-likeness, but, but that’s a journey and we all know it. Like we’ve got weaknesses and you know, we’re comfortable saying, Hey, we’re all sinners saved by grace. And then, you know, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, we’re unthinkably shocked when we find out there’s an actual sinner among us. Like we didn’t really mean that. It’s like, well, no, we are sinners.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And just because you got the title Pastor or leader or Reverend or whatever title you get, like that doesn’t magically cleanse you of your weaknesses and your sins. And then you add to that what we have found is that there is not a single seminary or Bible college that is proactively equipping future pastors in the area of their own sexuality.

Nick Stumbo — That’s always left to like, well, that’s your own spiritual development. That’s something you do on the side. Like we’re going to train you to teach the word of God and to run a church and to lead the ministry. And we just hope those other pieces take care of themselves.

Nick Stumbo — So you’ve got men and women who have their own story and their own brokenness that are receiving no training on how to handle their own sexuality in a healthy way. But then we ordain them or license them or hire them. And we just assume like, well, you’re good to go, right? And then as you brought up, there’s not this safe expectation that the pastor or leader can pursue help.

Nick Stumbo — And so I think if someone’s listening and they’re in that position where they’re overseeing a staff, they’re helping lead a team, I think it begins there with an attitude that says, hey, we know you love the Lord and we know you’re called to ministry and we know you’re gifted and we know you’re a sexual being that likely has unaddressed sexual brokenness. And as part of your employment here, we actually want to be a part of your healing, not a place where you have to hide what’s going on.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — And so for a church to think about how can we provide opportunities to say to our staff, we want you to pursue healing. We want you to be discipled in this area. You know, we we too often wait for it to be a discipline issue when we could start out with it being a discipleship issue.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good, that’s good.

Nick Stumbo — And so if churches had that attitude, we’re just here to disciple you. And if you’re new to ministry or young in ministry, we’re just going to assume you probably haven’t been helped in this area.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Nick Stumbo — One of our board members was on staff at a church of, you know, six, seven thousand people in Northern Idaho. And ah he was the executive pastor and really in charge of developing new staff. And he said, anytime we hired a young man, I just grabbed him and put him in my Pure Desire group. Cause I said, I you know, I know you’re on worship team and you look great in skinny jeans, but I also know you’ve got sexuality in your life and probably no one’s helped you. So you’re just going to be in our group and and they would just make that assumption of if you’ve never addressed this area, we’re just going to help you. We’re not even going to wait for you to ask for help. We’re just going to provide opportunity.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And what that did to that staff culture said, it’s okay to need help. And we’d rather be on the helping you side than wait until it blows up in your life. Because there, I mean, we know there are issues that when they cross certain lines, like they can cost a career, they can cost a job, and they they should, it’s appropriate that a person in that place be removed from ministry. But I always ask the question, what help could we have provided them 5, 10, 20 years ago…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …to equip them for a lifelong ministry of health and freedom. So I think just getting in and wrestling with that, you know, at Pure Desire, we have online groups for pastors only that are safe, confidential, that walk people through that experience. Because very often that story I told of like staff or pastors doing it in the local church, while that’s ideal, that may not be available.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And so we’ve got groups that meet online where a pastor could go through a healing experience and then really be equipped maybe to be that voice in the congregation that can help launch groups or help other staff ah find healing in their own story.

Rich Birch — Love that. i what ah I want to just underline something you said there. I think we have a huge upstream kind of cultural opportunity. We we don’t assume that our people are perfect when we hire them. We don’t assume. I remember a couple of years ago, I was watching a leader that I deeply respect had you know one of these like mentors from afar, somebody who um, you know, your, I just thought the world of. And they, they, their life blew up. They made all kinds of decisions that just like exploded, blew up all over everybody.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And I was watching an online service where it was kind of mid blow up and this person got up and was still kind of trying to defend themselves and all that. And I had this very sad feeling come over me because I was like, Oh friend, you think that we think that you’re perfect. Like you, the way you’re positioning yourself right now, you’re trying to kind of present yourself as if you’r…

Nick Stumbo — Yeah. All okay. Nothing to see here. Nothing behind the curtain.

Rich Birch — Yeah. and And I had a tremendous amount of sympathy for that person at that moment.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — Because I was like, oh, brother, like, like, no, like, if you just would have raised your hand and been like, yeah, I’m like, the gospel still works. I am a sinner. I’m I’ve screwed up in this area. I’m not perfect. I I and I and would have, if they would have submitted themselves, I think if they would have submitted themselves to some sort of process by which they would have like, you know, been able to take some steps forward. Yeah, I think we would have as the body of Christ responded and been like, wow, like, yeah, we wanna help.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But but we had, and I I so for me, that was like, I I think us even just creating the kind of cultures where we realize, hey, we’re not asking you to be perfect. We know we know you aren’t perfect.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And so, and nor am I. Like, that like let’s let’s just talk about this as an open way. Yeah, that’s that’s great. Super, super good.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Well, you’ve actually given us our links to a couple eBooks, Five Steps to Freedom from Pornography and Seven Keys to Overcome Betrayal. Could you kind of tell us a little bit more about these and and how could how could they be used? Where would they be helpful in this kind of dialogue discussion, either with our teams or in our church or that sort of thing?

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, these eBooks were really meant to be a good starting point…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …where someone says, I’ve I’ve done, you maybe like me, they’re saying, I’ve done the try harder. I’ve got the accountability software. I’ve told people to check in on me and I keep going back. Those eBooks would help them understand what does a process of freedom look like? How could you get started? And the hope is that it might present our structure in a way that they go, you know what? One of those groups sounds like exactly what I need. Because we get that upfront. eight to 10 months feels like that’s so long.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like there’s gotta be a plan B that I can do in three weeks, right?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Nick Stumbo — Like, so the five steps really is meant to be like, Hey, let’s get you started. Let’s help you think about some things. Start to put some, some of the pieces together, and then lead you to a place where you might see that there’s more work to be done here than you thought.

Nick Stumbo — And then on the betrayal side, I think so many spouses don’t even realize that there is something legitimately happening when they’re feeling betrayed that creates a very natural trauma response in the brain and in the soul. And that the questions that women are asking when they find out, or men, when they find out their spouse has been viewing pornography or acting out in other ways sexually, like the way our heart and mind respond are actually very common to one another.

Nick Stumbo — And if we can begin to understand it through that lens of betrayal and trauma and woundedness, then rather than putting blame on ourself or what sadly still can happen is where people feel like, well, if I’m just more sexual or if we have sex more, that’ll fix their problem. And it’s like, no, their problem isn’t actually about sex, and you didn’t create it and you can’t fix it. And the seven keys to betrayal trauma is, or to understanding betrayal, and is going to help someone begin to understand their own story and what’s happening to them. And what does a ah road towards health and recovery and and finding grace and forgiveness, what does that look like?

Nick Stumbo — And in a similar way to help a betrayed spouse, see, you know what, a group environment might be what I need as well to walk through this. So we, we wanted people to understand, you know, what we do is still a little new and different than I think people have understood. Um, but those eBooks can help someone take that step, understand ah what the road might look like, and then be willing to maybe take the longer journey, uh, in one of our groups.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. That’s good. And we’ll, like I say, we’ll link to those in the show notes so that you can, you know, pick up ah copies of that for yourself, for people in your, your church. I think that would be super helpful. I also noticed this eight-part video series. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? That kind of caught my eye in this whole discussion. Kind of tell us a little bit more about that.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, we wanted to help people understand our approach to healing, to understand the ways in which this goes beyond just being a bad decision people make to how is it rooted in our ways of thinking and believing that probably go all the way back to childhood.

Nick Stumbo — And we understand that that can be a little challenging to understand or to think through. And so this eight part video series is meant to be the 101. So it’s Sexual Integrity 101. It’s your entry level class to understand sexual addiction from a biblical perspective.

Rich Birch — Good.

Nick Stumbo — And to see a pathway to healing that may be more robust and a little bit more involved than you’ve expected before. So it’s ah a wonderful starting point for a church, for a staff, for a staff team to go through and say, hey, we we want to understand this topic better.

Nick Stumbo — We used to present this primarily as a two-day workshop. And as you might expect, it was difficult at times to get people to attend a two day conference on pornography and sexuality. Because what we found is if people had the problem, it felt exposing to go to a conference and talk about it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like then people will know I’m struggling. And if you don’t have the problem, then people felt like, well, I don’t think that’s for me.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — So whichever side you were on, you didn’t feel like you should go to the conference.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And we’d have people after they came, they’ll say, man, my whole church needs to hear this because this is actually unpacking our common struggle…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …how God made us, how sin and Satan trip us up and what does healing look like. And so that’s what the eight part video series is meant to do. It’s for men and women equally. We have men and women on our team teaching. We interview couples in recovery. You hear from male and female experts like Jay Stringer and Juli Slattery. And so it’s a powerful introductory tool for a church or a leader to understand what is Pure Desire going to do and what will their groups be like because it really establishes that foundation.

Rich Birch — Love it. Well, friends, I want to encourage you to get connected to Pure Desire. I’m sure there are people that are listening in that are like, hey, this this sounds like, you know, so helpful, either for me, for people on my team, for my church. So where do we want to send people online? And then what kind of final words would you have for us as we kind of wrap up today’s episode, Nick?

Nick Stumbo — Everything I shared about can be found on our website, puredesire.org. So at puredesire.org, you can find a list of local groups that might be meeting around you. We have ah around 1200 churches that have groups in them.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Nick Stumbo — And so we have a map on there that would show that. You could also find out what online groups are happening. It’s where you can find and purchase Sexual Integrity 101, which by the way, is a DVD set or a streaming option through our website. you There’s no subscription required. It’s just a one-time purchase. And then you can find out all the information about our counseling department and other materials that we have available. So all of that’s at puredesire.org.

Rich Birch — Great.

Nick Stumbo — I think my my final word, especially as I think of leaders, pastors, churches, this is an area that can quickly begin to feel overwhelming. I’ve actually had a couple of leaders say to me, Nick, we feel like if we open this door, too many people will come through and we won’t know what to do with them.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Wow.

Nick Stumbo — And I get it, but then their response is, so we just haven’t done anything. And to me, that feels so incredibly sad that we we recognize it’s a big problem. We suspect there’s probably more people in our church that need it than we realize. But then we get overwhelmed and we don’t do anything. And we’re here at Pure Desire to say, you can do this while the the topic itself can be challenging, a healing a system of groups isn’t as difficult as it it might sound. We’ve done all the hard work. I heard a pastor the other day say, Nick, what I love about Pure Desire is I feel like it’s an 80/20 relationship. I do 20% of the work and you guys have already done 80%.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Stumbo — And if I just create a little bit of structure around it, like I bring in your tools and your training and our people run with it. And that’s what we want it to be is to feel like you’ve got the tools you need. We can provide the resources and expertise and together we can make a kingdom-sized difference in people’s lives in this topic that so often gets left unaddressed.

Rich Birch — Right. Love it.

Nick Stumbo — So if you’re in that place of feeling like this is too big, it’s too messy, it gets legal, too fast, like. Yeah, we’ve been there. And we can help you and you can do this because when the church becomes the healing place for sexuality in our world, I think it’s going to evangelize and reach people in ways we are only beginning to see. Because the darkness that’s in our sexuality isn’t just in the church, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like we know our world is lost in sexuality and in their brokenness. And if the church can shine a line on it, not in a condemning way, but in a helping way to say there’s, there’s freedom, there’s hope, your marriage can be saved.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — I think the church will just be winning people over in a whole new way. And um there’s a tremendous opportunity. So don’t run from it. Don’t think it’s too big. We’ve done the hard work and we’re here to help. And as you step into this, I believe the light will shine through you and your church ah in ways you never thought it could, especially in this area of our sexuality.

Rich Birch — Love it. What a great way to to end. You can do this, we can help. I think that’s fantastic. We want to make sure people check out your website. Again, so that’s puredesire.org. We want to send people over there. It’s a great starting point, all kinds of resources, great way to to step in. You can also have the link there and to those ebooks in our show notes. Nick, I really I I really appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much, sir.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah. Thank you, Rich. Love being a part of it. And thank you for having this conversation.