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Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jeff Warren, Senior Pastor of Park Cities Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. Founded 86 years ago, PCBC is a fast-growing multicultural, multilingual, and multigenerational church.

What does it mean to stay faithful when leadership gets hard? In this candid conversation, Jeff shares lessons from decades of ministry—what he’s learned about identity, calling, and staying grounded when the pressures of leadership rise. From navigating the complexity of a large, legacy church to cultivating spiritual vitality among staff and volunteers, his perspective is both refreshing and deeply rooted in grace.

• A legacy church with a living mission. // Park Cities Baptist Church stands at the crossroads of tradition and transformation. Located in the heart of Dallas, the church gathers thousands each week across multiple venues and languages, including a thriving Spanish service. Jeff describes PCBC as “steeple people”—a legacy church that feels both historic and alive. Behind it all is a culture of warmth and hospitality, where five services, multiple worship styles, and vibrant connect groups reflect a single mission.
• The beauty and challenge of intergenerational ministry. // Jeff calls his congregation “intergenerational” for good reason. PCBC brings together everyone from centenarians to newborns, creating a living picture of the kingdom of God. While multiple venues help serve diverse preferences, Jeff’s deeper goal is to foster relationships across generations. The goal isn’t to erase differences, but to celebrate them as part of the family of God.
• Staying healthy as a leader. // After decades of ministry, Jeff has learned that sustainable leadership begins with identity in Christ, not performance. “Never base your worth on something that can be taken away,” he says, echoing C.S. Lewis. Ministry can easily become like a “drug,” feeding off the need to be needed or to see results. Jeff shares that his life verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21, grounds him in the truth that he is fully accepted, totally loved, and completely pleasing to God—not because of what he does, but because of who he is in Christ. This daily return to grace is what keeps him anchored through the highs and lows of leadership.
• Building a healthy team culture. // Jeff believes church health starts with healthy leaders. At PCBC, he models and expects rhythms of spiritual formation and accountability. The entire staff reads the same daily Scripture plan and discusses it together before meetings. The team also sets holistic yearly goals—spiritual, physical, relational, and vocational—to encourage balance and self-leadership.
• Living faithfully in the moment. // Through the challenges of COVID and cultural polarization, Jeff learned a lesson he now shares with his team: live in the present and define success by faithfulness, not outcomes. That posture of mindful obedience—serving whoever God places in front of him—is what what it looks like to be faithful with our moments, days and lives.

To learn more about Park Cities Baptist Church, visit pcbc.org. You can also find Jeff Warren on Instagram and Threads at @jeff_warren and discover his book Live Forgiven wherever books are sold.

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. I know it’s going to be the kind of thing that’s going to be helpful for you. Hopefully inspiring, hopefully help you to think about maybe the future of your church a little bit.

Rich Birch — Today, we have got Jeff Warren with us. He is from Park Cities Baptist Church and has served in multiple roles. If I’m getting it right, the young adults pastor, the minister the men’s ministry associate pastor, and since 2010, the senior pastor. Park City (PCBC) is a multicultural, multilingual, multi-generational church that meets in multiple venues, which is lots of multis in one sentence in Dallas. They’re also one of the fastest growing churches in the city. Jeff, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Jeff Warren — All right, Rich. Hey, great to be with you, man. And you about got it right. Yeah, I was here previously as student pastor right out of seminary.

Rich Birch — Okay, nice.

Jeff Warren — And so I was here for lots of years and then and gone.

Rich Birch — Yeah

Jeff Warren — I was in McKinney just north of here for 10, 11, and then back. The Lord called me back where I’m now ah dedicating babies of kids in my youth ministry and, you know, all that kind of thing. So really cool.

Rich Birch — So good.

Jeff Warren — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, well, um I’d love to hear a little bit more about PCBC. Kind of tell us the story, fill in the flavor. You know, if you were, if we came this weekend, tell us a little bit of what we would see.

Jeff Warren — Yeah, so you would you would come ah here at Northwest Highway in Dallas where there are thousands of cars driving by me right now. We are I like to say we’re yeah we’re a legacy church. You know, we’ve been around. We’ll celebrate this next month 86 years of being here in Dallas…

Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing.

Jeff Warren — …and the church was was it was planted, like a lot of folks probably listening, we met at University Park Elementary School ah for a while. Small group of people said there ought to be a church in Park Cities, where just right north of me right now from my office um was really the kind of the highest furthest point of North Dallas. We have ah charter members who remember it was big field, which is hard to believe.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yes. It’s packed now. Yeah.

Jeff Warren — You you can’t get out of a field, you know, for, yeah, for miles and miles. So all that said though, you would show up at big, you know, giant traditional, church with a steeple, you know, we’re steeple people, all the things.

Jeff Warren — But once you, gosh, step in, you would find that you’re greeted with a lot of love. It’s a challenging ah thing to find, okay where do I fit in? Wait, where do I go? So you find it all on our website. But we have multi-, as you said. I like to say intergenerational, right?

Rich Birch — Good. I like that. Yeah, nice.

Jeff Warren — We’re cross-generational, but intergenerational, that’s hard work, you know, we could talk about too.

Jeff Warren — But yeah, we have we have five services on a Sunday morning. Two of those, one’s in a chapel, one’s in a you know giant sanctuary, a beautiful sanctuary we have here. And then two of those are in the Great Hall where we have a contemporary you know modern worship and then En Español that meets in the and a Great Hall as well.

Jeff Warren — So we have all that. It sounds complicated, but once you arrive, we can point you to where you need to be. We have connect groups on Sunday mornings as well. So you have all those options with kids and all the things that happen here on Sunday morning.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s ah that’s a lot going on. That’s that’s incredible. I’d love to talk about the intergenerational. You know, that’s obviously something that you’re excited about and that God’s used. Talk us through when you say intergenerational, what what do you mean by that? What’s that look like?

Jeff Warren — Yeah. So you can imagine in a legacy church, a lot of different, the tension, you know, of a lot of different opinions, different experiences, all the things can make you crazy you know half the time, used to more so than it does now. I’ve seen it as just a glorious and beautiful thing to be in ah an intergenerational church where people have different ways of worshiping the Lord, different ways to connect.

Jeff Warren — So that’s why, in part, we have you know a lot of different options here. We have you know you yeah I know you talk to a lot of folks who have kind of one church, multiple locations. I like to think we we’re multiple venues in one church, you know one place.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeff Warren — And we also have a couple of sites off campus too, though, with our Spanish-speaking ministry. But all that said, man, the beauty and the glory of of a church that has an older, you know, I called the gal two weeks ago. I called on a Saturday, called her on her 100th birthday, you know, to wish her a happy birthday.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Jeff Warren — And then to be dedicating, as we did this past week, dedicating babies, you know, parents coming to dedicate their kids before the Lord. It’s just a beautiful thing. The challenge, Rich, comes with, I like to say intergenerational, you know, and that’s the that’s the challenge is to constantly allow and and and leverage our older adults with all the wisdom and all the things where you have Gen Z who so wants more and more mentors.

Jeff Warren — I talked to a gal last night. She’s in her 30s. I’m just looking for a mentor. Talk to a gal on Sunday. I need an older woman in my life. So the beauty of that is I know some older women. We can do this. You know, but it’s also the challenge. You come on our campus and it’s, hey, you’re young person, hey, they’re over there. And older person, you probably, okay, you’re probably over here in the chapel or whatever.

Jeff Warren — And so we we like to have, we have events and gatherings. We had one last night, a prayer gathering where we had we talked about how to respond to all the violence taking place in the world. And so it’s cross-generational. And so that’s the challenge, I think, the tension not to resolve but to manage is to connect our people across generational lines.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jeff Warren — We do periodically come together, as we will, a few times, probably four, maybe five times um a year, where we gather all together and worship the Lord. We’ll do that for our anniversary upcoming.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Jeff Warren — And yeah, so it that’s the challenge along with it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to kind of double click on that. I like that you’re saying it’s a challenge, it’s a tension, it’s glorious, and it’s beautiful. You know, every, and and, you know, there was a time in the life of the church, there was this idea, and you’ll no doubt know these words, this homogeneous unit idea that like, churches are going to grow by like all being the same. But actually increasingly we’ve just found that’s just not working, frankly. And it’s actually not a reflection of the kingdom of Christ.

Jeff Warren — Right.

Rich Birch — We don’t really want to do that. It’s it’s actually quite a bad idea and you’re trying to live out all kinds of diversity—age is one of them, you know, ah ethnic, racial, you know, there’s lots of ways we’re trying to to have diversity as a church. And what are you learning about trying to walk that line? What’s kind of practical? How are you doing that? How are you trying to drive towards unity? Like you say, living in the tension or the challenge of that?

Jeff Warren — Yeah, I think, as you noted, I remember that too, ho homogeneous unit a principle. I think it was Peter Wagner…

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Jeff Warren — …in you know another age and era. But…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeff Warren — …and you know and a lot of us like, okay, let’s go, thinking that was right and good.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah..

Jeff Warren — We didn’t read Revelation 7:9, where all this is heading, right?

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Jeff Warren — People from all tribes and nations. So, yeah, doesn’t look much like the kingdom of God. I think that’s the first step is to recognize, man, we we want to be that church. Now, if you know anything about Dallas, you come here, we’re in the Park Cities. So we’re we’re a township within Dallas, you know. And I don’t mind telling you, know we are we are white. I mean, we’re white up in here. And ah and very affluent ah part of, you know, part of Dallas as well.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeff Warren — But with that, ah we’re involved in a lot of ministry. I’ve heard others who’ve said, hey, you know, oftentimes the diversity around the community of the church, say within a one mile radius or so, is a lot more diverse than than the actual church itself. And so we have made some strides there, though. We we have become more and more colorful along the way, which is a greater picture of heaven.

Jeff Warren — Our In Español ministry is flourishing in a place where, against all odds, um our our Spanish language ministry is flourishing. And they are an integral part of our church as well. So that just opens the door for all kinds of opportunities. We’ve been involved in a lot of racial justice and reconciliation across the city of Dallas where we’ve partnered with ah churches, pastor swaps, all those good things.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Jeff Warren — But um more and more, I think you were asking for practical things.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Warren — I think it’s you know it’s that message of grace that’s got to drive everything. That everyone’s welcome here. I like to say it this way, we are radically devoted to hospitality and we are radically devoted to holiness.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — So becoming like Jesus. You know, I like to say, man, with all the theological debates we could have, you know, Jesus was perfect theology embodied, right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — So if you’re if you’re not, if you’re if you’re theology, the application of Scripture doesn’t look like Jesus in the end, you’re doing it wrong. And so grace is at the center. I like to say, you know, I don’t like to say we’re a centrist church – that feels like we’re sitting on the fence, right?

Jeff Warren — But but but we really are. We’re not we’re you know We’re not hardcore right and left and whatever that might mean for people here in America in particular. We find our we we find ourselves at the deep center…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — …where Christ is at the center of the church. And with that message of grace ah constantly in the mix, people, I think, do do feel and sense, man, I think I’m loved here. It doesn’t matter my skin color, doesn’t matter what look like, how old I am, young. And so that’s kind of the driving point…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — …I think, is are you you preaching that message of grace?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.

Jeff Warren — Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, um I don’t think you’ll mind me saying this. You have been in the saddle for a few years. You’ve been ah leader for quite a while, been through a lot. I’m sure you’ve been through ups and downs, wins and losses, things that have been good, things that haven’t been so good.

Jeff Warren — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do you as a leader, how do you keep yourself, your soul anchored in Jesus?

Jeff Warren — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do you keep leading through when things are up and down and not get sidelined? How do you do that?

Jeff Warren — Yeah, man. That’s a loaded one, right? We can talk a long time about that.

Rich Birch — Yes, lot there.

Jeff Warren — And I’ll try to center those thoughts. I was yeah I was at ah I was speaking at a seminary um ah not too long ago, and one of the guys said, the professor said, we need to have you back because our students need to see happy pastors. And you know I saw I think you probably saw, Barna recently came out, that what, 42% of all pastors are considering quitting.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeff Warren — Man, I haven’t seen those numbers since COVID, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.

Jeff Warren — I haven’t. I get that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeff Warren — I’m in a great place right now. I’m grateful. I am in a happy place. But man, I’ve had some dark nights of the soul. I would just say to all of your young pastor leaders out there that if you stay at this long enough, you will have those. And what’s what’s kept me in, Rich, has been a clear calling to the ministry and to this place.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — Everywhere I’ve gone, it’s been, Lord, I’m i’m there until you yank me out. And so knowing in those moments where, man, I could be doing this elsewhere, you know that kind of thing. We always kind of look into where the grass is greener, I think. But knowing that the Lord’s called me here, those have been in those dark moments, those have been the times when I’ve been, I’m still in, I’m still in.

Jeff Warren — And I think a big part of that too, for me, a lot of us, we wrap our identity up in our work that we do. That’s not just pastoring thing. But we define our work by the maybe the approval of others or by performance. And in ministry, that gets real insidious. It gets twisted because I’m doing this all for God, right?

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Jeff Warren — And then you start to realize um along the way that, gosh, maybe not. You know, maybe maybe I do have this high need to be needed. Maybe that’s why I’m in ministry in some ways.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Warren — That’s why he called me. I have have empathy is my highest you know strength finder, for real. It’s like the highest of the strength.

Rich Birch — Yes. Love it.

Jeff Warren — So I feel all the feels.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeff Warren — It serves well as a pastor, but also wrecks me. You know, when I’m like, oh, man, I I I so I love people, and I, you know, there’s underneath the dark side of that is I want them to love me too.

Jeff Warren — So I think staying centered, the main thing, Rich, that I would say is that—this is probably that moment you know in the in the sermon, in the teaching, if you hear nothing else, you know this is it.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeff Warren — For me, it has been to constantly, I never knew ministry would be this, constantly running back to Christ and finding my identity in Him. C.S. Lewis was the one who said, and I’ll translate him differently, but he said, never base your worth on something that can be taken away from you. Right?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah.

Jeff Warren — So so I’m a you know I’m a father, I’m a son, I’m a brother, I’m a friend, I’m, oh, and I’m a pastor, you know, all those things. None of those things are the truest thing about me. And someday, when, you know, parents are gone, when, you know, whatever, name it, you know, it’s why professional athletes who have a career in ending injury, right, need to not just have therapy.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeff Warren — They need to have, I mean, physical, they need to have real therapy. They don’t know who they are anymore. And so if our identity is founded being a pastor in my case, then man, that is going to be a rough road. And because, right, it’s up and down all the time.

Jeff Warren — And and oftentimes we base that on numbers. How’s my church doing? Are we growing?

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Jeff Warren — You know, am I crushing it in terms of sermons?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeff Warren — And that’s been the thing is constantly going back to this private personal prayer, Rich, that I have often into worship before I come before the Lord in in my quiet time. Lord, to remind me again of how much you love me. Remind me again of how much you love me.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — And that’s the key thing.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Let’s let’s double click on that. There’s an interesting tension there of having our identity firmly rooted in Christ, that’s obviously preeminent. And, you know, having a clear calling like that, you know, Jesus has called us to be where we are today. He’s called us to the role we’re in. Man, the lines can get blurry, though, between those two. You know, the kind of like our the call to have a, um you you know, a really strong call on our life for this, you know, this season or this place or this thing, this mission that we’re a part of can get wrapped up in like, well, maybe that’s the person I am.

Rich Birch — How do you, how do you hold both of those at the same time? How do you hold both of those in a way that that’s healthy? Because it seems as an outsider, it seems like you’re you’re able to do that well.

Jeff Warren — Well, um It’s been a journey, Rich. I do think I’m doing it better than I have in the past. So ah for me, I would say it this way, um as quick as I can, I guess, here. 2 Corinthians 5.21 is my life verse. It says, He made Him—we all know this verse—He may made Him who knew no sin to become sin for us, right?

Jeff Warren — The first half of that verse, that’s the gospel. Like, okay, yeah, Jesus, He’s our substitute more than just our good example, right? But then the latter part of that verse is what changed my life. Years ago, I was probably in my 30s, already in ministry, doing youth ministry at the time. But man, I was running like a wild man. Like I was at times, that’s a longer story, but I was so busy. I was married, no kids at that point. And I was like, who’s pointing a gun at my head? I can’t stop.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeff Warren — You know, I love what I’m doing. But Stacey, my wife, was like, are you you’re busy again this weekend? You know, it was kind of that moment. And I was like, what is what is happening to me? And it was this need to be needed. And and then I realized that ministry can become like a drug, right?

Jeff Warren — But so I understood the gospel, all that. But the latter part of that verse, he made him and who knew no sin to become sin for us. Then it says there’s this henna clause, a comma in a Greek.

Jeff Warren — I know just enough Greek to be dangerous, right? There’s ah but it’s a purpose clause that Paul used over and over again. He says, in order that, in other words, this happened in order that. And it says, in order that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Right? And so so what that means, I mean, I’ve asked that question before college students, adults, you know what is the righteousness of God? And I often get crickets.

Jeff Warren — And I think that’s because we don’t see we don’t know who we are. We are totally accepted, fully pleasing, completely loved, by Him. That is who I am.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — I am first a beloved son of the Most High King. That’s who I am. So much of ministry, I never knew… I mean, this is Christian life. But ministry is constantly, Lord, to remind me again. That’s the battle. And and I mean, you’ve asked the question. The battle is to stay there, to remain there.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, that’s so good.

Jeff Warren — And that’s for every one of us. And I never knew that ministry would be such a battlefield to constantly go back to Him and to be found in Him, is the phrase Paul loved, right? To be in Him-ness, the doctrine of of remaining in Him. That’s not to, in my case, not losing my salvation. I did nothing to gain it. I did nothing to receive it, so I can do nothing to lose it. But to stay in Him.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Jeff Warren — So that’s a it truly is, Rich, a constant spiritual discipline of of remaining in Him. And so, you know, not everybody can do this. You’ve got kids running around, you know. I’ve had twins and and I had three kids. But but now I can I can get up. My mornings are quiet. I get up early. You know, I think the key to life is going to bed on time, being early if you can.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Jeff Warren — And I like to hit the day in before the Lord and just get centered. So that’s what we do. And then, Lord, help me to how to live out of this.

Rich Birch — That’s so so good.

Jeff Warren — Help me live out of this.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, let’s pivot back to the church. You know, PCBC is is growing. It’s, you know, was flagged as one of the fastest growing churches in the country. You know, healthy things grow. How do you think about the kind of connection between growth and church health? How do those things fit together? How do you ensure that you’re not just, you know, weeds grow too. We don’t want those to we don’t want those to grow.

Jeff Warren — Yeah, right.

Rich Birch — We want something healthy to grow ah that’s got great fruit on and on the on the limbs. Talk me through how that works for you and how do you lead in that direction?

Jeff Warren — Yes. So, um you know, I think it’s really hard to find healthy churches because it’s hard to find healthy leaders, right?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — It’s hard to find healthy teams, leadership teams, because it’s hard to find healthy leaders. And so I I’ve really just, I think it’s it’s on me, it’s on key leaders in our church.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — I’m constantly talking to our team about how to be healthy, what I just described to you. I want my team to walk, remain in Him. I challenged my team this week, Rich. You know of the number of pastors who’ve fallen, particularly here in Dallas. It almost seems like there’s one every every week, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s been it’s been quite a season in Dallas.

Jeff Warren — And another just last week. And Yeah, so I’m, ah so my, you know, I I talked to our entire, we had an all staff. We have once a month, yesterday, Tuesday, and um gave them, you know, again, the big challenge. I did it with our ministers as well, just remain in the Lord. Let’s let’s not let’s not let that happen here. You know, how do we keep accountable with one another? And and so that’s that’s the great challenge. I think i think too often we it’s ministry pace can be so fast and so crazy. And we’re in a season right now that is wild. I like to say Jesus was often busy, but he was never in a hurry.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — And so I love to talk to our team about opportunities to slow down, even in busy seasons. How can we be in a busy season, managing life, family, marriage, all those things, and and stay centered in Him?

Jeff Warren — So I think more pastor leaders need to model that. We need to live that out and talk about it as a team. We read Scripture together. We have this Dwell reading plan. You can find it our website. All of our members are reading Scripture, the same Scriptures, every morning, every day.

Rich Birch — So good.

Jeff Warren — And so for years, Rich, I’ve wondered, how can I help my team be accountable? How can I be certain they’re in the Word? You know, I can’t I used to tell them, there’s only so much I can do for you. I hope you’re doing this.

Jeff Warren — But now at every staff meeting, every minister’s meeting, before we start, we’ll pray together and I’ll say, all right, hey, turn to your neighbor. Let’s talk about what you heard from God this morning when you’re in His Word.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeff Warren — And we’re all reading the same thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.

Jeff Warren — And so, yeah, that’s a relative past few years, a relatively new thing. And so we talk about what are we learning? How are we growing? You know, then BAM, let’s kick in. It doesn’t have to be a long part of the meeting, but it centers us, keeps us accountable.

Jeff Warren — Back to your question, I think that’s that’s key, is is is keeping everybody is spiritually healthy, and then myself, executive pastor, keeping us on on target, on track.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.

Jeff Warren — You know, and like we’re on a 100-day run you know right now as we’re doing a lot of vision planning. We’re doing long-range stuff towards 2030 right now for the next five years. And but centering in on, okay, what what’s the next? It’s kind that one four, one four, if you’ve seen that, that Auxano, others have used. That helps us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, I was going to ask for an example, but I love that idea of like, hey, we’re we’re on the same reading plan. We’re trying to keep everybody and hey, we’re going to even integrate that into our conversations. I think that’s that’s really practical.

Rich Birch — I often hear, you know, like it might be easy for the lead guy or the leader, whoever the leader of the church is, to be busy, but not in a hurry because like they can control their schedule. But working in a large, fast growing church is it’s like relentless, right? The weekend is always coming. Is there anything else that you do to try to ensure the rhythms with your team that you don’t get to the place where your, your team is like, Oh sure. That’s great for Jeff, but that doesn’t work in my world. Is there anything else you do to try to help your team, you know, run at a good pace?

Jeff Warren — Yeah, I think I think it’s staying it’s it’s staying in your lane, doing what you’ve called to do. Yeah that’s a great question, Rich. And because I don’t have the quick answer, I’m like, ha, we got to work on this one.

Rich Birch — Yeah, you’re good. That’s good.

Jeff Warren — Again, instead of just, hey, I’ll model that for you. Because truthfully, I mean, I love, like a lot of us, I love the work I do. I’ve got a really, I got a busy day today, you know doing a lot of things I love. But I’ll also model the role…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — …and then I’ll ask them one of the parts of our our evaluation even involves some ah some holistic health. And so the at the beginning of every year, I ask them to give to me and we share together the you know, kind of what’s your single word for the year kind of center in what are you what are you looking for God to do and desiring for him to do in you?

Jeff Warren — And then we look at, literally, we look at physical, spiritual, interrelational, and then vocational life.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — And then we talk about what are your goals for the year. And that plays into then how you’re doing. So I can come back to knowing every one of them. Hey, want to work out a few times a week. You know, I’m gonna I’m going to finally lose some weight. I need to go to bed earlier. You know, whatever the thing might be, try to keep each other accountable in that. Easier said than done.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeff Warren — But I think I think it’s true. If you model it as a leader, and I think you’re okay. You know, we all want to, I think a lot of times we think our members want us to, I hope my pastor is about to kill himself serving Jesus, you know? And they really don’t mean that, but it can feel that way.

Rich Birch — No, no.

Jeff Warren — So when I get a chance, like I want to be out on my bike, you know, I want to be. I’d love to ride. That’s my happy place. And so I’ll be be out at the lake these days. I’m trying to find some gap there. I think it’s real important that you you you set a schedule for the week and try to set a pattern.

Jeff Warren — So there are certain times that are study times for me that can’t be touched. There are certain times where I do mark out, when am I going to get some exercise, you know, that kind of thing. Again, easier said than done ah because, you know, there’s going to come the crisis.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — There’s going to come, oh, I’m doing that funeral. You know, that happens.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. That pushes in for sure. Yeah that’s, that’s, that’s great. Well, you’ve written a book called “Live Forgiven”. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that. We’ll link to that in the show notes, but why don’ you tell us a little bit about, uh, about that book? What, you know, kind of what was the, the germ of that? Well, that’s a lot of work to pull together, a resource like that. Talk us through that. What’s, what’s that look like?

Jeff Warren — Yeah, so it’s a little bit of what I talked about earlier. It really is unpacking the gospel. What does it mean to live forgiven? In other words, what is grace? And then how do you appropriate grace in your life?

Jeff Warren — So it really is built around my life verse, 2 Corinthians 5.21 that we talked about earlier. And a lot of what I’ve learned, the appropriation of grace to really, again, remain in Him, I think you know it’s possible today, Rich, and this is a big deal, this is what I’m preaching a lot, it’s possible to self-identify as a Christian in America and not be a disciple of Jesus. And those are two very different things, right? I know that you know John Mark Comer, among others, have talked a lot about that. He’s just riffing off Dallas Willard. We all know that. And that that there’s a real difference. And so anyway, it’s it’s about that.

Jeff Warren — Once capturing grace and understanding the gospel that Christianity is not work harder, get better. It’s believe more deeply what He’s already accomplished for us. And then, okay, yeah, I get that. But then how to appropriate that?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — How can I live forgiven, remaining in Him? And that’s my, you know, if you come around here much, that’s my constant message. We don’t have much of another message, really, do we, Rich? We’ve got one message, and it’s the grace of God.

Rich Birch — Right. Amen. Yeah.

Jeff Warren — And then it’s parsed out in all kinds of ways. But, yeah, that’s what the book’s about.

Rich Birch — That’s great. So good. well Well, yeah, we’ll link to that. And this has been, this been a good conversation, you know, ah thinking through wrestling through you know, your own um relationship with Jesus, how that impacts your life, how that impacts your leadership, you know, leading a, you know, very busy churches doing all kinds of things and is reaching people. Busy is to the wrong word, in a very active church that’s, you know, making an impact, which is incredible. It’s been a good conversation. Anything else you’d love to share just as we kind of land today’s episode?

Jeff Warren — Yeah, I would share something that ah um I’ve come to over the past few years and a new learning for me that I think would be really good for pastors, leaders listening. Another thing that’s really set me free um has been to to live in the present, to be mindful and and to live in the moment. We hear that a lot, but let me let me explain that.

Jeff Warren — You know when COVID hit, um if we were if we were deciding that you know our worth and our value is found in how many people come into our church, that was kind of blown up, right? And so during that time, I was really I was really wrestling. Like a lot of us, was real dark time because any decision I made as a pastor… and I’m starting to have some PTSD you know right now with some of what’s going on our culture right now.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Jeff Warren — You know the old the the old but the trope, you know if your pastor didn’t say this, you know this past week…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, it’s wild, right?

Jeff Warren — …I mean, you know, you ought to find another church. I’m like, please.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Warren — Okay, you’re not pastoring my church.

Rich Birch — No, exactly.

Jeff Warren — So so during that time, long longer story short, out of that then, where I thought, well, we’re going to bounce back, you know. We we were, think, a lot of legacy churches. We did not bounce back, right? We’re back. We’re beyond where we were pre-COVID. But it has been, I mean, it’s been work, right?

Rich Birch — It’s a journey. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Warren — So so for me the the learning is this. I have a friend who is a recovering addict. He’s got a ministry that’s amazing. Michael Moulton, M to the Rock is his is this name.

Jeff Warren — But he I sat down with him and I said, Michael, how do you do it, man? How are you sober? How do you remain sober?

Jeff Warren — He said he said, Jeff, I’ve got to live in the moment. I’ve got to live in the present.

Jeff Warren — And I said, okay, help me there. Help me. What do you mean?

Jeff Warren — He said, man, if I go back to in the past, all I have is shame and regret. My guy’s got 23 mug shots, okay. He’s had he has a past, right. And he says, if I go in the past I have shame or regret. If I go into the future, all I have is worry and anxiety. He says, so I’ve got to stay right here.

Jeff Warren — And then I said, how do you do how do you stay right here? I mean I get that, but he said, I’ve got I’ve got to serve somebody.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — I’ve got I’ve got to get outside of myself. And I’ve got to serve someone.

Jeff Warren — So Rich, here’s what I’d say to to close all that. It’s been so freeing for me. It means that I’m going to…what is success? Okay, there’s not numbers in ministry or whatever, the you know, bigger, better church, something. What is success? I asked the Lord during that time, Lord, what is success in ministry? And he he kind of, you know, holy headbutt, kind of slapped me upside the head and said, no, there’s a question before that question. Shows you where your mind and your heart is. The question is not success in ministry. What is success in life, right? What is success as a disciple?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — And what I came to, and this is not new for me, I discovered later that Mother Teresa, among others. It’s success is faithfulness. Full stop.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Amen. Amen.

Jeff Warren — Not faithfulness so that… Right? No, no, no. Faithfulness full stop. And so what does faithfulness look like? This is where all this goes. Faithfulness looks like being faithful in the moment. Like with whomever He’s put in front of me right now.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — Not not this afternoon.

Rich Birch — Good. Right.

Jeff Warren — Not my lunch appointment. Right now.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeff Warren — Whomever He’s put in front of me, focus! And whatever He’s called me to do in the moment. And man, that has been so freeing for me.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Jeff Warren — It’s a battle, but if we can live that way…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — …I can put, you know, you and I both, I can put this hour together. Next I got another appointment later. I’m meeting with another, you know, whatever. I can go home tonight, hopefully give my best emotional energy to Stacey, my wife, and I can put my head on the pillow tonight and go, I mean, I kind of messed up, you know, 2 o’clock, I blew it, and then 3 o’clock, that wasn’t a great meeting.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeff Warren — But I sought to be faithful in the moment.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.

Jeff Warren — And you put some hours together, you put days together, months and years together, and someday, you know, it’s what we long to hear. Hey you’ve been faithful. Well done. Been faithful. And those happened that just happens one moment at a time.

Rich Birch — Yeah, Jeff, that’s so good. That’s so good. So helpful for people. I appreciate that. Great. Yeah, super helpful insights and great for us to wrestle through and think about those things.

Rich Birch — If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?

Jeff Warren — Yeah, you can find us at pcbc.org. Find out everything about us. You can even find there. You can find, know, I’m on Instagram. You know, Twitter, less and less. Facebook, you know, dumpster fire, even less.

Rich Birch — True. So true.

Jeff Warren — I’m on Threads. You can find me.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeff Warren — I think it’s jeff_warren, but just find, yeah, Jeff Warren.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great. Appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you so much.

Jeff Warren — Thank you, Rich. Thanks for all you’re doing, man. I love love you. Appreciate all you’re doing, bro. Keep it up.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much.

Jeff Warren — All right.