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Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re sitting down with Brian Tome, the founder and senior pastor at Crossroads Church in Cincinnati – one of the fastest growing and most innovative churches in the country.

Whether we realize it or not, the systems in our churches are often set up to cater to women more than men. Many Christian men are dissatisfied with their faith and the current state of men’s ministry. How do we attract and engage more men in our churches? Tune in as Brian talks about men’s ministry, Man Camp, and spiritual awakening.

• Understand your church’s systems. // Many churches aren’t naturally set up to to attract men. The current demographic makeup of a church is not accidental; it reflects the underlying systems in place. Church leaders need to examine the structures at their churches consider how they might be unintentionally excluding men. Even the programming or worship songs we choose can appeal more to women while alienating men.
• Challenges men face. // If we want to reach our culture, Brian believes that we need to acknowledge that men are a vulnerable demographic that we need to focus on. Men face significant challenges in society, including higher rates of suicide and substance abuse, a declining life expectancy, and gradually being locked out of opportunities. Churches need to recognize and address these issues to effectively reach men.
• Engaging men. // To address the challenge of attracting men, Crossroads Church chose colors and messaging that resonated with a male audience from the beginning. Over time, the church has continued to evolve its approach, focusing on creating environments where men feel comfortable and engaged. One of the standout initiatives at Crossroads is “Man Camp,” which Brian describes as a transformative experience for men.
• Man Camp. // Inspired by a motorcycle trip where he witnessed the power of vulnerability and connection among men, Brian envisioned an event that would facilitate similar experiences in a camp setting. Man Camp provides an opportunity for men to bond over shared activities, engage in meaningful conversations, and step out of their comfort zone in the great outdoors. The weekend includes a variety of activities, from competitive events to more relaxed gatherings around a campfire. Participants are required to bring their own food and supplies, creating a primitive camping experience that challenges men to take ownership of their time together.
• Spiritual awakening. // Looking ahead, Brian’s desire is for Man Camp to contribute to a broader awakening among men, and women, in the church. He believes that the church is overdue for a significant spiritual revival and that initiatives like Man Camp can play a crucial role in facilitating this change. Church leaders need to think outside traditional church growth strategies and explore new avenues for outreach and engagement to continue to reach our culture with the gospel.
• Challenge your faith. // Man Camp isn’t just for members of Crossroads Church, or even just believers – it’s open worldwide to men who are ready to be challenged physically, mentally and spiritually. If you’re ready to move beyond your spiritual comfort zone, this year Man Camp will be held from September 27-29 in Ohio. Register before September 1st at mancamp.us.
• Authenticity in ministry. // Many men, both believers and non-believers, are dissatisfied with their lives, faith, and the current state of men’s ministry. Church leaders need to create environments that are genuine and relatable, rather than overly polished or traditional, when trying to engage the men in their communities. Authenticity in ministry can help men feel more comfortable and open to exploring their faith.

Visit www.mancamp.us to register for Man Camp on September 27-29, 2024. You can also learn more about Crossroads Church at www.crossroads.net and Brian Tome at www.briantome.com.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’ve got Brian Tome with us. He’s the founding and senior pastor at Crossroads Church in the cultural epicenter of the world, Cincinnati, Ohio. Crossroads has started in 1995 under Brian’s leadership. Crossroad has since expanded to becoming one of the largest churches in the country. But these guys are super innovative. Everything that Crossroads does, every time I interact with anybody from Crossroads, I’m leaned in, I’ve got my notepad open, and I’m learning. So honored to have Brian with us. He’s an author of a number of books, including The Aggressive Life, The Aggressive Life, which is a podcast that he hosts. And he leads a movement called Man Camp. Welcome to the show, Brian. So glad you’re here.

Brian Tome — Great to be with you, Rich. I actually don’t have a book called Aggressive Life. That’s the podcast. Five Marks of a Man – not that I’m trying to hawk my wares right now. But no, it’s good. No. It’s good. It’s good to be with you, man. Thanks for having me on. I’m honored.

Rich Birch — I appreciate you correcting that. That’s good stuff. Talk to us about Crossroads. Kind of give us the story there. If people were to arrive this weekend, what would they experience? Give us a sense of the church.

Brian Tome — Oh, gosh. Well, if they arrived here this weekend, they probably would be very similar to any mega-church, really. I mean, we all look the same, you know. You know, a lot of people, a lot of loud music, you know, some half decent teaching and a lot of video. And you know, free coffee and away you go.

Brian Tome — Now that was that was not the way it was way back when. You know, when we when we started Crossroads, there were a lot of things that we were doing that no one was doing before.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — But those things are very common. Like we were giving away coffee before I think any anybody was. They would have to have a little, you know, coffee cup that was there. When people were selling tapes, literally selling tapes, we were giving it away with with stickers on the tapes that said, please reproduce.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — When we were making sure we had 100 DB in our worship music because we knew people needed a concert environment. When believers would come to our midst, it was, you know, that was not what they expected.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Brian Tome — So but right now it looks pretty much like any other church. A lot of people, a lot of people don’t, wouldn’t be willing to say that or admit it, but there’s differences. There certainly is. But but they’re very similar…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …which is kind of what I’m most excited about, Rich, if you just want me to babble for a little bit here.

Rich Birch — Sure, yeah.

Brian Tome — I love unSeminary. You know, when I was, when I was in seminary, cemetery, seminary, I was when I was in seminary…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Brian Tome — …I chose the seminary I went to because I was in a local church that I knew was undergoing a lot of changes, and I would get a lot of leadership lessons there. So I went to a small seminary in Pittsburgh, knowing that I would also get a practical education from North Park Church…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …in how to transition to church from traditional hymn singing pews into something contemporary and all that stuff, you know?

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Brian Tome — That’s why I stayed there. I knew that seminary was not going to be preparing me practically for ministry.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — That’s why I thought I needed theologically. But second, prepare me, prepare me, practically.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — And then from there, it was about innovating and thinking through, okay, what is it that I’m supposed to do? How does God want to use me?

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — And a lot of the moves you make when you first start a church or first start leadership, they’re copy and paste moves.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — You find out what works and you copy and paste, but then eventually, you start innovating and branching out.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. One of the things that for me as an outsider looking in at Crossroads that has, I think, been a hallmark of, of your ministry… So many of our churches, we talk about what we’re trying to create, a place for guys to come. You know, we’re trying to create a place where, you know, whatever it is, 35 year old male, 28 year old male, what we all talk about in different ways, we would love for those guys to come. But when we look at the actual people attending our church, it’s 60/70% women, which is not a that’s not a not degradation of the women that are attending our churches…

Brian Tome — Right.

Rich Birch — …but our churches don’t seem to be naturally set up to want to attract guys. Why is that? What what what’s happening there. Diagnose that problem for us.

Brian Tome — Yeah. Well, you you to build a large church or a large organization, you have to understand the basic rule. Your systems are set up to give you exactly what you’re currently getting. You’re not getting what you’re getting by accident.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Brian Tome — Your systems are set up for it. And so when and you may not even know you have a system.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Brian Tome — You may have never planned it, but you have a system that’s producing the results that you have right now. Excuse me, excuse me. So you’re right. When we look at churches, we’re clearly we have a system, clearly, that works for women and clearly not for men. I mean, can we just start there and admit that?

Rich Birch — Admit that. Yeah.

Brian Tome — And there’s a bunch of signs, a bunch of reasons for that. I could go into the normal litany, of course, that a lot of people know, but we just got to just say, hey, if we want to reach a culture and we actually want to reach right now, believe it or not, the most vulnerable part of our culture, which is men. Men.

Rich Birch — Unpack that, unpack that, talk about that a little bit more.

Brian Tome — Men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — Men are decreasing in life expectancy, unlike women. Men are two times more likely to have an alcohol abuse related or chemical dependency issue than women are. Grad schools right now are 70% female. We know from our history he or she were the best education that has the most money. So we’re men are being locked out of opportunities, or at least will be very very soon. We have an ongoing discussion about toxic masculinity.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — It’s it’s I when I get asked I get to ask that all the time. And my, my first response is, have you ever heard the phrase toxic femininity?

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — Of course you haven’t, because you would get stoned if you did.

Rich Birch — Right, right, right.

Brian Tome — But yet we talk about toxic. Like if someone has a gun and a pickup truck, then is that toxic masculinity? We say if someone drives a pink car and wears eyeshadow, is that toxic femininity?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — Not everybody has to have those things. But I’m just going, like, even how we talk about it with men. We we belittle men. If a man is having a friendship, we don’t know how to categorize it. So we call it a bromance. We call it a man crush. Because we we…

Rich Birch — Yeah, we don’t know what to do with it.

Brian Tome — And our churches are structured to have women. They just are. Our worship songs or love songs to Jesus.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — They’re not the kind of songs that men connect with from of old. Things like Our Mighty Fortress is Our God. My gosh, Onward Christian Soldiers! You couldn’t even do that today. I don’t know what you’re saying about Christian Soldiers. Are you saying we’re pro gun? Are we are we saying we’re going to… Just freaking relax?

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Take a take a breath. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Tome — Take a song. You know what a beautiful name it is. Wait, no, no, no. What a beautiful name it is, the name of Jesus. You know that that that that thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yah.

Brian Tome — That’s weird. I love that song. It’s weird.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — What a beautiful name, Rich, is the name of Rich. What a beautiful name.

Rich Birch — Right, right. You would never say that.

Brian Tome — You’ll be okay hearing wonderful name, powerful name, but it’s just. And we don’t think much about it because it’s in the water. It’s our system to reach and communicate women to, not men.

Rich Birch — Right, right. Okay, so so I know churches will do they’ll be like, okay, we’ve got to fix this problem. And so then we end up with, like I would say, real milquetoast solutions. We end up with like, Saturday morning, you know…

Brian Tome — Pancake breakfast.

Rich Birch — …pancake breakfast, which is not what Crossroads is doing by any means. Compare and contrast why is that? Like so that is like so, you know, repulsive to me. I’m like, I don’t want to be a part of that. I don’t want to sit around in a, you know, a pancake breakfast. But yeah, talk to us about what is it that that Crossroads has done to try to tap into guys to connect with them?

Brian Tome — I so we started, at the very beginning, even before we started to have a focus on men, and God started to refine some things in me, from the beginning, this came from our marketing team. We used to have a mailer – all of our people were all volunteers…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …a lot of them from Proctor and Gamble, which at that point still arguably today is still the the king marketer in the world. Right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — I mean, they’re making money convincing people that soapy solutions, they should buy theirs versus somebody else’s.

Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah.

Brian Tome — I hate the target is men. We have to reach men. There they were saying. And a woman led that up, Vivienne Bechtold. We got women, if if we reach men, then we can get women. And men are decision makers and all that. That’s what we believed in 1995. So we chose the colors we had, and we chose the copy we had, thinking about men. So that was the that was the beginning of thinking that. Right?

Brian Tome — And then as and then as time went on, you start to say, all right, well, who is God uniquely made me? He’s made me a man. And what would I like to do as a man? Well, let’s start doing that at Crossroads. And so we just kept building from there, really.

Brian Tome — And I don’t think I don’t think our church can do that, Rich.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — I think, I think, nor do I think all churches should do that. I’m really big right now on 2 Timothy 4:5 where Paul’s talking to Timothy and he tells them things. Three of them everybody should do. One of them, no. One, he says be sober minded. Great. Let’s be sober minded. Let’s think clearly. Two, two is endure affliction. We’re all going to have crappy times. And the reason we have so many people deconstructing, leaving the faith, not giving people a proper doctrine of difficulty, that life is just hard. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and embrace the suck.

Brian Tome — Third thing he says is do the work of evangelism. Doesn’t say have the gift of evangelism. All of us, no matter what our gifting are, we’ve got to be sharing our faith. And the fourth thing and this is the thing that’s unique to everybody. He says, fulfill your ministry. Emphasis YOUR – fulfill your ministry. Timothy never wrote any books that went in the New Testament. Timothy never went to other countries on ships to share the gospel, at least not that I know of. Timothy never, as far as I know, you know, went and started a bunch of other churches.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — Maybe maybe on that. But he didn’t. What I’m saying is he didn’t have the Apostle Paul’s ministry. Fulfill his ministry.

Rich Birch — Right, right, right.

Brian Tome — And we’ve got to get more people in the kingdom of God that know uniquely what they can do in fulfilling your ministry. Not Steven Furtick’s ministry…

Yeah, it’s true.

Brian Tome — …not Brian Tome’s ministry, not anybody. Your ministry.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. I’ve said in other environments that one of my impressions of being around, you know, multiplicity of lead pastors who have led churches that have grown, you know, they’ve gone beyond a thousand, 2000, 3000, they’re growing 4- or 5000 people, is it does seem like over time those ministries become, you know, it’s like the lead pastors and the leadership of the church. They become more of themselves. They become more of like they take on a unique personality. That’s a part of what I think God uses. So I love that. That’s a great a great reminder from Scripture.

Rich Birch — Well, let’s talk about a specific outworking of this kind of approach to trying to connect with guys. Man Camp. What is Man Camp? Explain this to me.

Brian Tome — Okay, so I was on a motorcycle trip once where we camp off of our motorcycles. And it was a tough day before. It rained at night. We got up in the morning, we were having coffee around a fire, and somebody opened up and shared something real vulnerable about their life. And I realized this happens all the time. We’re pushed. We’re in an uncomfortable place. We’re standing in the fire. We’re having some beverages at night or in the morning or whatever it is. And someone and someone opens up and stimulates a great conversation.

Brian Tome — And I said, yo, we should do this, but not expect people to have a motorcycle. What could you do? You know…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Brian Tome — …what could we do that would give people a sense of adventure, a sense of mystery, of unknown, where they sit around a fire and talk? And that’s when man camp was born. And all those people around that, around that campfire, were the leadership became the leadership core for Man Camp and are still serving at Man Camp, to this day on everything. And we we did a we found a guy with a farm in Indiana, and we sold out tickets. Like, people put credit cards in to open up at 6 a.m. Sold out 90 seconds. 500 tickets sold out in 90 seconds.

Rich Birch — That’s crazy.

Brian Tome — We said, okay, let’s do that again. So we did another one. A make up in two weeks. Same thing. 500, 500 gone like in minutes, you know. Done. And then we went to an abandoned ATV park and then did. And then we bought our own land, and then we just bought more land to add on to our land. So, and, and we’re seeing, yeah, we’re seeing, quite breakthrough in men’s lives and people coming to Christ like crazy supernatural stuff like, tongues…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …tongues, breaking out in the prayer tent where people are hearing Portuguese that they have never spoken or heard.

Rich Birch — Wow, wow.

Brian Tome — And we had four countries come to the last one.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Amazing.

Brian Tome — 41 states and four countries. And we had the situation with, people came from Portugal.

Rich Birch — Right. Wow.

Brian Tome — And one of the guys speaks the gift of tongues inside of the personal prayer language thing. And he said, I’m, I’m just gonna try this and see what it goes with this thing. And he did it. And they all there was one of them spoke English, and the guy who spoke English said, we don’t know what you’re speaking. But we all understand, stood every word you heard you said, and we understood it exactly. Here’s what you said.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Brian Tome — It’s interesting when you read Acts 2, you’re not sure if there’s a supernatural ability for people to speak ah speak Portuguese who haven’t heard it, or if the people in Portugal are hearing it the way they can understand.

Rich Birch — Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Tome — It’s uncertain. So, and we got right beside that is that crazy stuff is happening. We’ve got a beer a beer truck right beside. We went through 100 kegs of beer last time. And, and that’s kind of the magic of Man Camp. It’s all the things that men normally do, all wedged together. And you think it shouldn’t work, but it does.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — When you have guys together camping, someone’s going to be drinking.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — And when you have guys who are together and they, a good percentage of them know Jesus, they’re going to be talking about Jesus. Let’s put it all together. And that’s really where the power is.

Rich Birch — How does the programming work? Is it is it overly programmed, or is it just kind of like a menu? Here’s a whole bunch of stuff to do. How what are you finding is working on that front from a like how you know what’s actually happening during the few days that you’re away?

Brian Tome — Yeah. All I mean, all men are different, you know, some drive minivans, some drive trucks, some like to shoot guns. Some people hate guns. Some are married. Some… But there’s no prototypical man. I don’t think. So Man Camp has to be, meets different men where they are. If you want to do a machismo arm wrestling competition, if you got muscle mass, great, we got it for you.

RIch Birch — Sure.

Brian Tome — If you want to, you know, have some, have some beers. Great. If you don’t, we make a big thing like a lot of people shouldn’t drink. And some of the most manly men are in recovery and some people here should be in recovery. Great. We, you know, we we do that sort of thing. But we do the common thing is we try to meet men where they are and let them be off. Let them be themselves. Let them have a different environment with other men who understand them, quite frankly, more than any other woman.

Rich Birch — Right. Interesting. Now our so people are bringing all their own stuff. It sounds like they’re bringing their own food. It’s like, you know, it’s pretty primitive. Is that by design…

Brian Tome — Yes.

Rich Birch — …or are you hoping long term, like, talk us through that part?

Brian Tome — No, it’s very it’s primitive by design.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — We are we are not looking to give you another thing you can buy, we entertain you with. You got to figure it the freak out. You got to figure it out. That’s that’s a major problem.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — So we’re not going to build, like, retreat facilities because it would be a financial and maintenance nightmare. No, you got to bring something to the thing. We’re going to give you one lunch, and we’re going to give you a program and structure. But no, your group have to figure out who’s doing breakfasts, who’s doing dinners, how all that stuff’s happen. No, that that that’s very intentional.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Interesting. Now what is when you think about the future, you know, as you’re obviously this has grown. It started you know, with a couple of weekends and you know now you’ve got a lot of folks showing up. What’s your heart for this for the long term? Obviously this doesn’t seem like the kind of thing, this isn’t a passing fad. You guys are committed to this. You bought land. You’re trying to you know, this is like a significant deal you’re thinking about here. But talk to us where do you think this is going?

Brian Tome — I think where it’s going and where I’m praying for is a is an awakening. An awakening on a mass scale in our country for men and women. That’s where I think it’s going. I think we’re way overdue for an awakening. And I’m tired of just incrementally growing the church on pastoring. I’m tired of just adding another campus that needs to happen, and I knighted somebody else here to do that work while I’m still engaged with it.

Brian Tome — But like, you know, if an if a church growing by 20% was going to change America would, if another campus was, it would…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — We got to start trying some new things. Where where are the future Jim Rayburns, who started Young Life and ship people from all over the country and got his bus company to take kids out? Where where’s the Bill Brights that had a vision put Campus Crusade on every single campus and four spiritual laws and people raise money. Where are those ideas? All we’re doing is trying to replicate somebody else’s success. And I think this may be the thing that maybe God is asking us to do. And it may be the thing that unlocks the masses of people. We’re way overdue, Rich, for an awakening on a mass scale.

Rich Birch — Yeah, amen. Absolutely.

Brian Tome — And they all happen outside, by the way.

Rich Birch — Well talk to you about that. That’s an interesting idea. Talk talk to me about about your conviction about a revival is happening outside.

Brian Tome — Yeah. Well okay. So revivals if you’re going to revivals, like Christians having their faith revived, that can happen inside.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Brian Tome — But if you’re talking about awakenings, which is where the Spirit of God descends in a region and there is conversions on a large scale and the structures are changed and shifted, we have a bunch of those that we can study. George Whitfield, George Whitfield, gosh, Wesley, all that stuff. Well, the most recent revival that took place, which was amazing down in Asbury. I’m so bummed I didn’t go to that because it’s an hour away, and I found out about it. I could have gone the next day after it happened.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — And I just waited too long. Too late. But, you know, Francis Asbury was named for Francis Asbury. Francis Asbury wrote 300,000 miles on horseback…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …going outside, preaching in the settlements, 300,000 miles, you know.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — And so these things, is it outside because it’s cheaper? Is it outside because people aren’t boxed in? Outside you feel closer to God. Outside because the walls are blown out and you can see. Outside because the most palpable presence of God seems to be in the tabernacle versus the temple.

Brian Tome — You know? You ever notice that? Like the description in the Pentateuch is very clear – pillar of fire, cloud. It’s, and then when it goes inside the temple, it’s like, waa-waa.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Brian Tome — Like there’s some stuff going in there, but it’s just. So there’s something, I think, in the history of the Spirit of God, there’s something about the sanctuary of outside. We’re ready for another one of those things. We’re ready for a Woodstock of spiritual proportions.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s a great insight. You know, I think, like, even in even you look in the book of Acts, right? Like Paul is going from place to place to place. He goes somewhere, a riot breaks out, then he’s got to go somewhere else, like, that, you know, that’s a fascinating insight. I can see where, you know, I wonder if a part of it is when the church kind of settles down and finally gets reasonable and has a, you know, a building and all that, the risk goes out of it.

Brian Tome — Right.

Rich Birch — The, you know, the our faith isn’t stretched as much. And so we’re not, you know, we’re not leaning out there where, you know, by definition, if you’re if you’re taking people out into the middle of nowhere, there’s a ton of risk in this.

Brian Tome — I’m pro-buildings.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Brian Tome — We’re building a very expensive building in Dayton, Ohio right now. Very, very, very, very. The construction costs are ridiculous. So I’m pro-buildings.

Brian Tome — I just also know that if you look at the history of Christendom, there’s big jumps that happen spiritually outdoors. And if I look at some of the things I’m really excited about, it’s, It’s what’s happening in our camps. Are you familiar with that that study that came out of, came out of Gordon Cromwell, what was it? Four years ago, about how much it cost to baptize a person?

Rich Birch — Oh, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Tome — Yeah, yeah. I’m gonna look up the up the things right now. They they they basically looked at all of all the money given to Christian causes, churches, non-profits and the number of people who were baptized.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — And they divided it, which that’s a pretty big deal, right? It’s like…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …great commission. And and in 2017, the number, the number per baptism, what it costs, excuse me, 2014, is $753,000. So to get someone saved and baptized cost $753,000. They’re projecting that 2025, it would be $1.4 Million dollars…

Rich Birch — Right, it’s unscalable.

Brian Tome — …per baptism. Wow. Now so I just looked at Crossroads and I said, okay, I’m curious, where are we?

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — At 70 million bucks given last year, we baptized 2000 people, it was came out to be like, I don’t know, 30,000 bucks or what is that, the person in my room, whatever it is. So not bad. But I tell you what was really crazy when I looked at, when I looked at what it meant for camps, you know what camps was?

Rich Birch — How much?

Brian Tome — Camps was it was, oh, where is it I’m giving $769 a baptism. When we factored in all the land, all the staff, all the all the, the program 769. So that is like the most…

Rich Birch — Super compelling.

Brian Tome — Oh my gosh.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah..

Brian Tome — I don’t know. Is that what it is? I don’t know. I just think we’ve got to get back to our roots, and our roots as human beings is spending more, more time outside.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Now, is is Man Camp open? Like, is this just a Crossroads thing or is it open to guys outside of Crossroads? Talk us through that. How does that work?

Brian Tome — Well, we have 41 states and four countries. So Crossroads is not in 41 states and four countries.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Tome — No. This is a this is a movement of men. In fact, what we have is we have some churches bring some of their men. Like, well, pastor, come and bring some folks. Or another guy one guy comes, just he saw it on social media, and then he’ll come the next year with three people, and it builds that way. So it certainly is a Crossroads, Crossroads is the financial engine behind that where the creative driver of it, but no, this is this is a man thing. This isn’t this isn’t a Crossroads thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s great.

Rich Birch — So if I’m if I’m listening in today, I’m, you know, I’m a church leader, you’d encourage people to say, hey, like, maybe load up a maybe there’s even a small group of guys, a van load. Hey, let’s let’s jump in the car and go check this out. This year’s Man Camp is at the end of September. September 27th to the 29th. If people want information, they go to mancamp.us. What else we want to say to that kind of leader that’s listening in? I’m hoping they’ll be inspired to think outside the box, but is there anything else around, you know, Man Camp specifically that we want them to be thinking about?

Brian Tome — I think it’s like with the rest of life, Rich. If you want something different, you got to try something different.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — This is something very different. I don’t meet many people who are satisfied with what’s happening with men. I don’t meet many people who are satisfied with the ministry endeavors that are gone towards men.

Brian Tome — In fact, I meet very few Christian men who are satisfied with their faith.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Brian Tome — I and this is we’re talking unbelievers. We’re talking believers. This this is not like a Christianese event. If it was a Christianese event, we wouldn’t be wouldn’t be going through 100, 100 kegs of beer last time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — We had to make another beer run. You know, this is like…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — It’s not Kumbaya or trying to impress all the churchy people. You’re going to hear language here that you might not like. We’re it’s men. It’s a it’s a men’s event. So I would say, why don’t you push yourself? Why don’t you try something.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — God’s using something here. Give yourself a different experience. There’s something that happens to us where we stop trying new things and exposing ourselves to new ministry methods.

Rich Birch — Love that.

Brian Tome — I push people to try it. Give it a try.

Rich Birch — Well, so let’s talk about, so this is working. This is in the category of working. I think oftentimes we talk as church leaders. Hey you should try something new when we are referencing the things that are working. What’s something that you guys have tried at Crossroads that was like a giant wet fart that just did not go anywhere. That was like, oh, that didn’t work out. Like that was, you know, not a great.

Brian Tome — A wet fart. I love that.

Rich Birch — Sticking with the Man Camp theme.

Brian Tome — Right. Well, we’re pretty, we’re pretty, we’re pretty, we’re pretty well, we’re pretty well known in church circles for our digital strategy, and our app, and how we engage people. We actually don’t count attendance anymore. Well, we do count physical attendance, but we count engagement. And we track a bunch of different things to tell people where they’re engaged. But the failure thing. We wasted millions of dollars. Millions. We’re having huge success right now. But we were a bit too, too rambunctious, too whatever, too high ourselves just to having rooms full of coders who were coding stuff that shouldn’t have been coded. That was a, that was a, a really, really huge, huge failure.

Brian Tome — Our first our first Christmas show. We thought, man, Cincinnatians love Christmas things. They go to the same right Ebenezer Scrooge thing again and again and again. We should we should try to do a Christmas show that’s that’s spiritual in nature that has the Christian message in it. First one was just horrible. It was horrible. I mean, we wrote it; it was awful. It was called Imagine. You can’t imagine how bad it was. Seriously. I was getting I was getting emails like, what are you?!? I mean, it was so bad, like we didn’t have Christmas music. It didn’t even mention Jesus. It was really weird.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — I’m serious. It was weird. We had light bulb guy that sort of looked like Christmas tree. That was it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — It was it was horrible. Like people left the church over it. It was like, this is what we give you a Christmas. Boom. Well, but that was the beginning of, Awaited, Christmas show that we did that reached when we, before we shut down, it was last year. There was 125,000 people…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Brian Tome — …at that thing. And, we’re actually working to bring it back. But that was a massive wet fart…

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — …That that that led to that. We’ve, our student ministry. Oh my gosh. Our student ministry has struggled since day one.

Rich Birch — Right.

Brian Tome — And it’s only been we’ve had a lot of people doing some good work there, but never been happy with where it’s been until the last two years. And like, we’ve got the right guy and it’s going it’s going good. But it’s been horrible. So we’ve had a lot of duds.

Rich Birch — Right. Well this has been great. That on the innovation side, I think that’s one of those things, churches that have or organizations that have innovated do you have a long list of things that have not gone well and I appreciate you just even, you know, tapping into that.

Rich Birch — Well, Man Camp, I really do want to encourage church leaders to check out mancamp.us for more information. I would, you know, I think this is fantastic. I love what you guys are doing. I just want to honor you for your leadership, for the good things that have happened at Crossroads over all these years. And in this kind of current iteration, I think it’s inspiring for sure. Going to give you the last word. What’s the last thing you’d love to say just as we wrap up today’s episode?

Brian Tome — Jesus is Lord.

Rich Birch — Love it. Nice.

Brian Tome — Okay. That is that is the most important thing. But…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Brian Tome — …I would encourage I would encourage people, look, hey, fulfill your ministry. Your ministry.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Brian Tome — Cover bands don’t change the world.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Brian Tome — You’ve got you’ve got to learn your instrument by playing cover man cover band tunes, but if you want to change the world, you got to start writing your own stuff and doing something and it hasn’t been seen before. We need more people doing that. And seminaries aren’t preparing people for that. And the megachurch culture isn’t even encouraging people to do that. But we need more people who are doing their ministry, fulfilling it and finding it.

Rich Birch — Love it. Well, thanks so much, Brian. Again, I would want to get people to check out mancamp.us. Is there anywhere else online we want to send people as we wrap up today’s episode?

Brian Tome — If you want to do a deeper dive, you can go to briantome.com. And, if you want to see my day job, it’s Crossroads.net.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here today, Brian.

Brian Tome — My pleasure Rich. Thanks for having me. A huge fan of what you’ve done and how you’re serving people. Really, really great, man. So I’m honored to be able to spend some time with you.