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Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Danny Anderson, the Lead Pastor at Emmanuel Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Is your church growing quickly, but you’re feeling the pressure? Wondering how to balance church growth with spiritual health for yourself and your staff team? Danny shares his journey of leading a fast-growing church while maintaining soul care and healthy leadership practices.

• Give people time to grieve. // Danny joined Emmanuel Church as a high school pastor in 1999. In 2006 he transitioned into the lead pastor role following the retirement of the founding pastor. Danny was eager to cast a fresh vision and implement changes in order to reach more people. However, he didn’t initially recognize that people needed time to grieve the departure of their previous pastor. This led to a challenging transition and attendance dropped significantly within the first 18 months.
• Honor the past while casting vision for the future. // Honor the past when transitioning leadership. People need time to adopt a new vision and accept the coming changes. Clear, unwavering vision needs to come from the lead pastor, however, when formulating a new vision, look at who Jesus spent time with and why He came.
• The pressures of growth. // As people at Emmanuel bought into the vision of reaching people far from God, they began inviting friends and the church regained momentum. Since then, they have continued to expand, opening a new campus nearly every other year. However, with growth can come pressure. It’s not uncommon for pastors to experience either burnout or moral failure amidst fast growth. But Danny emphasizes that this is not inevitable for leaders—provided they actively care for their souls.
• Take care of your own soul and faith. // The most important job of a leader is to take care of their soul. Effective leadership begins with the senior leader doing the work to care for their soul and follow Jesus well. Danny wakes up every morning and incorporates daily routines such as scripture reading, prayer, confession, and journaling to maintain his spiritual health and stay grounded and aligned with Jesus.
• Keep your mind in the right spot. // The mind controls how we think and feel, and our soul relies on how we feel. The way we feel will shape the way we act. In order to make godly choices and live a righteous life, we need to fill our minds with scripture and be thinking correctly. By making sure our minds are in a good spot, we make sure our souls are too.
• Be the example. // When it comes to staff health, everything starts with the senior leader. A leader’s demeanor and attitude will shape the church culture. Danny challenges his staff to care for their souls, whether it’s in staff meetings or in practices the church implements. For example, at Emmanuel they prioritize the spiritual well-being of the team by instituting a strict Sabbath policy where no one is allowed to work on Fridays. This practice underscores the belief that the health of the soul is more important than church productivity. A pastor needs to follow the same challenges they give to their people, thereby setting an example for them.
• Balance the key issues in your life. // Danny’s book Church Growth Unleashed: How to Grow Your Church Without Losing Your Soul was written to help church leaders grow a healthy, thriving congregation without sacrificing their churches, families, or health. Often failure at a church is not because of the size of the church but because a pastor didn’t care for their soul. The book talks about key issues in a church leader’s life that help provide balance, such as how their physical health helps them serve and lead, and the importance of having friends that a pastor can be vulnerable with.

Find Emmanuel Church at eclife.org and explore both the Church Growth Unleashed podcast and book. Plus, find Danny on Instagram @DannyAnderson23.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for today’s conversation. Really looking forward to this because this every time I interact with this leader, it feels like a kindred spirit. You’re going to love this conversation. You want to lean in carefully because we’ve got lessons both for your church and for you as an individual.

Rich Birch — Today we’re talking with Pastor Danny Anderson. He is the lead pastor at a church that you should be following, Emmanuel Church, ah it which which was established in 1977. It’s a multisite church with, I think if I’m counting correctly, seven campuses in Indianapolis, an online campus, and a number of ah microsites. It’s repeatedly on one of the fastest growing church lists in the country. Danny’s been a lead pastor there since 2006. He also served as the high school pastor, which we all know the best people come up, from Student Ministry. Has got a podcast as well, so I know his audio is going to be good. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here, Danny.

Danny Anderson — Thanks, Rich. Appreciate you having me. What a privilege.

Rich Birch — Yeah, this. Oh, come on. So our honor. Glad you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the picture? Kind of tell us a little bit about about you, about the church, that that sort of thing.

Danny Anderson — Yeah, so ah I graduated from Liberty University in ’99 and actually interviewed with Emmanuel Church coming out of college…

Rich Birch — Nice.

Danny Anderson — …because it was my wife’s home church.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.

Danny Anderson — And they they were like, hey, who’s this guy? Maybe maybe he’ll be a good high school pastor.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Danny Anderson — And did the interview process, got the job. And yeah, did did youth ministry for five years, loved it. And then my found our founding pastor ah decided to ah pursue enter into retirement in 2006 and kind of tapped me on the shoulder. Church voted me in.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Danny Anderson — And the wild ride of senior leadership began in 2006.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Danny Anderson — And it went smoothly.

Rich Birch — Yeah, no problems at all. Easy, easy. Well, actually, why don’t you give us a bit of some of the milestones along the way? When you look back, here we are, 2025, you know, coming up on 20 years, that’s a long time, ah which is wonderful. Give us some of those milestones that kind of are, have been key and when you look back over these years.

Danny Anderson — Well, I’ll tell you what, the first year and a half was incredibly difficult, you know taking over for a founding pastor. Pastoral transitions are tough anyway, but when you when you transition after a founding pastor ah who’s beloved, um adored by the people, it was really tough. I had some people tell me, look, I don’t care if you were Andy Stanley, this would not have gone any better.

Rich Birch — Right, right. Yes, yeah.

Danny Anderson — But so it was it was tough. I like to say that I successfully led the church from 2000 to 900 in about a year and a half.

Rich Birch — Okay yes.

Danny Anderson — And so it was it was very difficult, very challenging. So a big milestone was in two thousand ah late 2007, 2008, people started to bring their friends. And I remember I remember it vividly. People started to get saved. I was casting vision. I was trying to stop the bleeding. And then people started to believe the message that, hey, we’re here to reach people who are far from God. Like the church exists to see people who are far from Christ you know come to to know Him and grow in a relationship with Him.

Danny Anderson — And those who chose to stay under my leadership began to invite their friends and people got saved, started to get baptized. And yeah moving into 2010, we were so packed that we had to start a Saturday night service. That was a big milestone for us.

Rich Birch — Well, that’s a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — You know, launching that, we’re like, man, we’re out of space. What do we do?

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And then moving into 2013, we launched our first campus, and that ah was about a 500-person solution, you know?

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — We sent out 500 people, and ah that church is is doing wonderful. They just celebrated 10 years um ah and into in 2023.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s amazing.

Danny Anderson — And since then, we’ve kind of launched one campus every other year or so, and and…

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great.

Danny Anderson — …and it’s it’s just been um you know an incredible journey.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. I love to kind of double click on something. You talked about casting vision. That’s a unique challenge coming in after the founding. I know the stats on the guy that comes in after the founding pastor, not great. You know, like I don’t want to discourage anybody that’s listening in, but it’s like lots of times those guys last about 18 months.

Danny Anderson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But you were able to cast a new vision, interestingly, at that same kind of timeframe, 18 months, two years in, you’ve got to clarify. What was going through your head in that moment around clarity of vision, you know, kind of because there’s ah a balance there of like casting a new vision, but then, but you also don’t want to trample on the past and all that. You want to build on where we get, what would, how, how did you cast a vision in that season and how did that impact the church?

Danny Anderson — Well, I I definitely was naive and some of that played to my advantage and some of that hurt me.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Right.

Danny Anderson — I could have done a much better job honoring the past. And if there’s anybody out there listening and thinking about transitioning or in a transition, it’s very important for the person coming in behind the pastor, especially the founding pastor, just to honor honor the past, honor where you’ve been. I kind of jumped past that um and I was so excited. I was eager. I was 26 years old and I wanted to talk about the future. I wanted to talk about how we are going to do things differently to reach people who are far from God. And so I started canceling programs. I changed the music. I did all these things that I had heard others did to reach the next generation.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — And that that was fairly easy to talk about. We did a series about it. I talked about it. But what I didn’t understand because I was so young is that people were not ready to receive that vision yet.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — They were still um grieving the loss of their founding pastor, still not sure whether or not they should buy into my leadership.

Rich Birch — Yep/

Danny Anderson — I didn’t really understand the law of buy-in…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — …you know, ah by John Maxwell.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.

Danny Anderson — And I just got, I went right into vision.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — And so we paid the price for that. It it really hurt us. But in the long run, those who did choose to stay bought into that vision. But you know the I guess the question you asked me was, how did I maybe formulate that vision?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — You know for for me for me, it was just the New Testament just reading like, who did Jesus spend time with? What was this heart? Why did he come? You know I was radically saved in high school as a 17-year-old kid. I was not a church kid. My life was totally revolutionized, did a 180. So when I put my faith in Christ, it was it was because I knew he forgave me. I knew he was real. I didn’t really care about church. I just loved Jesus, you know?

Rich Birch — Good.

Danny Anderson — And I just, I wanted, I want people to experience that.

Danny Anderson — And and so my vision was, hey, let’s let’s be a church that reaches people who really need hope. They really need meaning. They need purpose. They need forgiveness. They need grace, all these wonderful things that I had received. And that only made sense to me. Like, why why else would we do church?

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah, yeah for sure. Well, but it’s interesting, right? Like I think a lot of times I know as a person that sat in that kind of executive pastor second chair, I know a part of what I’ve tried to do over the years is encourage the lead pastors I’ve served for to to continue to clarify the vision. And a lot of it like that, that’s a thing that a lead pastor can’t outsource. We can’t be like, we can’t pull 25 people in a room and go, So why do we think we should exist? Like no, no, like you’ve you got to feel it at in your bones. like It’s like, hey, this is I’m willing to drive the and the bus over the cliff over this issue. And that ultimately is what gathers people. And and yeah, that’s that’s good

Rich Birch — Okay, so pivoting in a slightly different direction. So you’re coming up you know two decades, almost two decades as in in this lead role. That’s amazing. Incredible. Congratulations on that.

Danny Anderson — Thank you.

Rich Birch — You know, we often see that, you know, churches of a certain size. One of the kind of common characteristics is you’ve got leaders that are in their second, third decade there that that’s normal. It is not typical that it like happens overnight. It takes time. But one of the downsides, the negative kind of tragic realities is many parents experience or parents, pastors experience either burnout or moral failure amidst the kind of growth that your church has seen.

Rich Birch — You know, can we explore that a little bit? Talk about kind of your own personal reflections on how do you navigate that? How do you kind of keep your soul connected to Jesus in the midst of that?

Danny Anderson — That’s a great question. You know, one ah one of the things that really broke my heart several years ago, and I think many pastors were brokenhearted over seeing some of their heroes and of the faith, the church leaders that they’ve followed for years, looked up to, gone to their conferences.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.

Danny Anderson — You know, we’ve all watched some of these guys kind of shipwreck their their church for, you know, ah moral reasons, power struggles. And, you know, I I’m watching this happen, as as everyone else is, and I’m like, man, is it inevitable that this is going to happen to me?

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Danny Anderson — You know, because I’m I’m I’m on the same path these guys are on.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — I’m trying to grow the church. Things are happening. And we’re launching campuses. You knowis it inevitable that I’m going to have an affair or or or do something stupid with money or abuse power?

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And and I got to thinking about that. And I was like, no, that’s not inevitable.

Rich Birch — Good.

Danny Anderson — And and the reason why it’s not inevitable for me or for any pastor out there is that if you do the proper work on your soul, which is the most important thing that we can do, you know, the Proverbs 4:23 says, guard your heart above all else because out of it flow the issues of life, right? Like everything we do, our leadership, our sermons, the way we lead our team, it all comes from our heart.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — So the most important, I’m convinced, the most and important job of a leader is to take care of their soul.

Rich Birch — Right. Good.

Danny Anderson — Because if my soul is healthy…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — …and it’s aligned with Jesus and it’s surrendered to his will, like then I can lead well. And I won’t shipwreck my faith, and I won’t fall into temptation.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — I’m not talking about perfection. Nobody’s going to be perfect.

Rich Birch — No. Yeah, yeah.

Danny Anderson — I’m talking about patterns of sin that will destroy your church, destroy your minister, and disqualify you from leading.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. 100%.

Danny Anderson — And so I spend a ton of time, Rich, working on myself. I did it again this morning. I wake up every morning at 5.30. I have a whole routine I go through. And it’s it’s it involves the scriptures, surrender, prayer, confession, journaling, um reading other books. And and I do that, not because I’m a pastor, but because I want but because I want to take care of my soul. I want to have a healthy soul.

Rich Birch — Yes, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — And so I have practices and rhythms that I keep to make sure that I maintain that in the midst of the chaos of leading our church, which there’s never a dull moment, as you know, leading a church, it’s it’s crazy.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — But so yeah, I’m I’m hyper focused on that.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to talk a little bit more about that, kind of drilling, because one of the I appreciate the way you framed that. Because one of the realities of it is like all the people who that you’re thinking of that have shipwrecked their ministries, shipwrecked their lives, they all would have said that they would have said no, I’ve got practices. I’ve got you know and that’s the sad reality here right? And then there is this cynicism I think for me one of the most corrosive parts of this is there’s a cynicism against large churches. And to me that that’s like that’s like gets to you know effectiveness of the gospel kind of stuff then we’re like well we should just keep all our churches small and that’s the answer. But that isn’t the answer.

Rich Birch — We need to be able to lead large churches that are having huge impacts on our community and keep our soul healthy at the same time. So is there one of those practices that maybe it’s like, Hey, I’ve never heard people talk about this. Or like, it seems like a different thing or like this is particularly, has been particularly effective for me or helpful for me, or as I’ve shared with other pastors, they’ve resonated been like, Oh, that’s, that’s different. I I appreciate that. That that’s really helpful for me.

Danny Anderson — Yeah, you know, I think the most effective thing that I have practiced or put into my life in terms of a discipline that cares for the soul is, and this has been talked about, so it’s not it’s not fresh.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yep.

Danny Anderson — It’s just a matter of, are we doing it?

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. True. Yep.

Danny Anderson — You know, I hear I hear pastors say this all the time. You know, I I have practices, okay, but are you really doing it?

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And so here’s here’s here’s how I would explain it. I would explain it um it’s it’s the practice of meditation. And and and I don’t I don’t mean the Eastern type of meditation way emptying yourself and emptying your mind.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — I’m talking about filling your mind with Scripture…

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.

Danny Anderson — …to the point where, like in Psalm 1, it says that with that the man of God meditates on it day and night.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — In Joshua 1:8, you know, we meditate upon your law day and night. Is that really true about us? Because here’s how, you know, Dallas Willard and and and many others have explained the way the soul is wired. And I don’t want to go too deep here, but we do have to kind of go deep a little bit. Like the mind controls, predominantly, for the most part, how we feel, like we think and then we feel. And then the will or the place of action at the center of our soul is dependent upon how we’re feeling and how we’re thinking.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.

Danny Anderson — So if I want to make proper choices, godly choices, live a righteous life, or treat my staff well, or have patience with my assistant, or whatever, then I have to be thinking correctly.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — My mind has got to be in the right place, which is why the Apostle Paul says, you know, set your mind on things above, not on things on earth, right? That we’re transformed by the renewing of our mind. We can we’ve preached sermons like that, right? But do we live that way? Where’s our mind?

Rich Birch — Yep. Right.

Danny Anderson — Every single day?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Like not just not just at certain times when we’re preparing a sermon or or something, but like throughout the day, are we actually thinking Scripture?

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good.

Danny Anderson — Because if we are, then that’s going to be shaping the way we feel…

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good.

Danny Anderson — …and then the way we feel is going to shape the way we act. And so I teach that, I try to live that out. And that’s how that’s the primary practice of of tending for my soul.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — So if I want my soul to be in a good good spot, I got to make sure my mind is in a good spot.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I like I like even how you frame that there around I’ve got to be thinking scripture. And and that’s even a good benchmark for me that got me thinking, okay, so when I go to solve a problem, something that comes up today, is the first thing that comes to mind scripture or is the first thing that comes to mind some book I read, or some podcast I listen to? Is it, you know, and that’s I’m not saying that there’s not ah good things to come from podcasts, obviously, but you know but but what is the knee-jerk reaction of my mind? Is it, am I brought back to the teaching of Jesus ultimately? That’s good. I really like that.

Danny Anderson — So let me push in a little bit more on that one thought. You know Dallas Willard teaches this, and and if your listeners haven’t dove in to Dallas’ stuff, I would strongly encourage them to do so. “Renovation of the Heart”, “Divine Conspiracy”, “Spirit of the Disciplines”, “The Great Omission”, all fantastic stuff. But what he actually teaches about scripture, scripture memorization, and the power of it is that as we’re meditating on scripture through the day, we actually interpret life through the lens of the scripture.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — So so it’s like the scriptures are like the lens that we’re looking through as we’re leading our team or we’re talking with our spouse.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — And so we’re interpreting the events of life through scripture. And if we’re doing that, then we’re actually thinking the thoughts of Jesus. And you know as Dallas has said in his books that spiritual maturity is being able to act the way Jesus would act if he were in your place, right? So if I want to do that, I have to think the way Jesus thinks…

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Danny Anderson — …if I want to live the way he lived, and that ah one idea has changed my leadership and has changed my life.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. So good. Well, then extending that out kind of beyond you to your team, I’ve had a little bit of interaction with some of the Emmanuel team. And, you know, there, if I can just kind of say the thing that some people are thinking is oftentimes, you know, the teams in large churches, it’s like, man, they’re burnt out, they’re struggling. And it’s like, that’s fine for the lead person. They got it all sorted out, but like the team is in a bad spot.

Rich Birch — But that hasn’t been my impression of the Emmanuel team. It’s like, well, these people are healthy and they seem to be leaning in. And so how have you been able to navigate the challenges of both scaling? Because you seem like an ambitious church. It seems like, hey, we want to take some ground, but at the same time, balance out health of your staff.

Danny Anderson — Yeah, so I have to live it out that everything starts with the senior leader, right? So I talk about this stuff at staff meeting. I challenge my team to do this stuff. We incorporate the Sabbath very aggressively here at the church.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Danny Anderson — So nobody’s allowed to work on Friday. And that is a very that’s huge.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Like, hey, this that communicates that your soul is more important to me and to God than getting results at this church.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — So you will you are not allowed to work on Friday.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Like it is a rule unless somebody has died or something, you know.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Danny Anderson — So, you know people know I’m serious about it. And they know that I care more about their soul than I do about the work that’s actually happening. Now, that does not mean we don’t care about the work that’s happening around here.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — We want to launch one campus a year for the next 12 years.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — We’re very ambitious. um So I think it’s ah it’s this balance. Like what are you talking about in staff meeting? And what does your staff see from you? Like if my staff sees me walking around the office, and I’m barking out orders, and I’ ‘m they could see my face is frustrated, or I’m upset, you know what is that saying? Like there’s some pastors that lead their church that way.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.

Danny Anderson — They lead their church through anger…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — … and their face. And everyone’s like, oh, well, look at his face. He’s upset. What’s pastor do… Like, that is not the way Jesus led, you know?

Rich Birch — No, it’s true.

Danny Anderson — So the the so everyone’s really watching my tone of voice. They’re watching my facial expression. Is he upset? You know, is he calm? Is he poised? And so that stuff all goes back to my personal disciplines of meditation and quiet time and prayer and weekly Sabbath. And and so it starts with me and you have to push that down, those values down into your staff.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And give them the space to practice those things that you’re telling them to practice.

Rich Birch — Right. And there there’s a key there around, you know, when I’ve been around healthy leaders, have worked with healthy leaders, there’s something about you talking about it that then creates, and living it out, and like, like you’re saying, is even simple things as crazy as it sounds like, Hey, we’re not going to work on one day a week. Friday’s the sabbath day. Uh, like even something as simple as that, talking about it enough so that your team will hold you accountable. Like they’ll come back. If you talk about that enough, they’re going to be like, well, wait a second, Danny. Like you said, we’re not supposed to work Fridays, but why is it that you keep sending me the slides Friday morning at 9:30 in the morning to be done for the weekend?

Danny Anderson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I can’t do what you want me to do. And so, yeah, that’s good. I love that. So, so good.

Rich Birch — Well, I’d love to pivot it in another direction. So you’ve got a book that came out last year and you’ve got a podcast by the same same name, Church Growth Unleashed: How to Grow Your Church Without Losing Your Soul. We’ve obviously been talking about some of these issues today, but this is a huge task, putting together a book. You know, tell us, kind of why why did you drive towards that? What what are you hoping to get out of this? Who are you thinking about as you pulled this book together?

Danny Anderson — Yeah, I’m thinking about the the the pastor who has the passion to see lost people enter the kingdom, but today you’re being told that, you know, big churches are bad…

Rich Birch — Yeah. 100%.

Danny Anderson — …and you shouldn’t want to grow your church. And I’m like, man, I almost fell prey to that, Rich.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Like, I really I actually picked up one of those books that had that message in it.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — And I’m like, man, maybe we should stay small.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Maybe we should just be be content with what we have and the people that we have. And it’s like, I felt guilty about about my ambition.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes.

Danny Anderson — And then I’m like looking at the apostle Paul and the gospel and he’s like, man, let’s go reach the world.

Rich Birch — Let’s go. Yeah, yeah.

Danny Anderson — And he’s ambitious to to preach and plant churches where no one’s heard the gospel.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — And and I’m like, man, this God’s heart, is to reach lost people – lots of them, millions of them.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.

Danny Anderson — And so I wrote this book to help pastors strike the balance of, okay, I know I want to reach people. I want to fan that flame, right? Yes, that is God’s heart. For God so loved the world, He gave His one and only Son, right? But also on the other hand, if you don’t do that in a wise way, you’re going to end up like some of these other guys.

Rich Birch — It’s true. Yep.

Danny Anderson — And you’re not just going to lose your church, you’re going to lose your family. You could lose your health, your your physical health

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Yep

Danny Anderson — …because you overdo it and you over you become a ah workaholic. And and so there is a balance.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — And I feel like I haven’t always gotten that right, but man, I sure have tried. Because I want to make it to the end, Rich. I’m 47. I want to go all the way to the end…

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good.

Danny Anderson — …hand this church off to somebody else in a healthy way and still have a family and a healthy heart. And um and and set this church up to reach the even the next generation.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — So I’m passionate about you know helping pastors to find that path.

Rich Birch — Well, I know, I you know, I love that you said church growth right in the title, because as a fellow author with a book with the title, with church growth in the title, that’s like it that’s like a dangerous decision in some circles.

Danny Anderson — Right.

Rich Birch — They’re like, well, church growth, isn’t that like guys in the 80s that got like tapes and they’re you know they’re like old, dodgy you know kind of a little bit like you know slick salesman kind of thing. So I love that you did that. I love I love that you did that. I love your heart both to balance the issues around, hey we want to reach people. I agree with you. I think there is this dangerous um, it sounds good. It sounds like even like noble to be like, well, we should keep small. We should, you know, we should play small and like, I’m only going to reach the people on my street. And we’re we’re going to stay under a couple hundred people. And that’s like what God has called us to. Why do you think that is such a pervasive idea? Why why has that become such a pervasive idea in the church?

Danny Anderson — Well, I think I think part of it is, it’s a great question, but i think I think a big part of it is that when people see these mega church pastors screw up…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — …whether it is because some sexual sin…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …or they have abused power or something…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …they immediately make the connection that, see, the problem is not his, the problem is not his soul. The problem is that the church is too big.


Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Danny Anderson — And so churches are not designed to be that big. And so that, and I just don’t believe that.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Danny Anderson — I do not believe the problem is the size of the church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — The problem is the pastor did not take care of his soul.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s good.

Danny Anderson — Let me think about Billy Graham, Rich. I know Billy Graham wasn’t a pastor…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …but that guy took care of his soul.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Danny Anderson — When you read his stuff, when you read his books, his his he was so diligent to watch over his heart with meditation and his scripture, the scripture. He never missed a time with God. He never missed time with God. So my dedication is I never miss my time with God.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — I don’t say I don’t say that to brag because that would be ridiculous. There’s nothing to brag about.

Rich Birch — Right. No, yep.

Danny Anderson — I do that because I need it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — To keep my heart humble and aligned with God’s will.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. 100%.

Danny Anderson — So, you know, I don’t believe the problem is the size of the church. I believe Jesus wants the whole world to be saved.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — So, and I’m part of that solution. So are you.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — So that means we gotta we got to grow our churches.

Rich Birch — Yeah, and there’s way more people in Indianapolis in your backyard who don’t attend church that do.

Danny Anderson — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — And we’ve got to do what we can to get out in front of them and reach those people. I’ve never said this publicly, but I’m going to say it here because I’d love to get your reaction to it.

Rich Birch — Years ago, 10 years ago, I was talking to a lead pastor of a fairly large church, a name brand church, and they said, you know, we we’re talking about this exact issue, growing a church and why do so many people fail and all of that. And this individual said you know I think the problem is or one of the problems is a church—and this is gonna sound crazy—if you’re leading a church of a couple hundred people what I’m about to say, you’re gonna say, that is nuts, but it resonates with me. I actually was like um I think there’s some truth to this. They said, you know, one of the problems is you get to a church of four or five thousand people and as the lead pastor, there’s not enough challenge. And I was like what?

Rich Birch — And I leaned in and I said what are you talking about? And they’re like well At the end of the day, like i if I’m doing my job right, and I’ve told my people to do to do the work, and I’ve built amazing teams, and I’ve got a lot of people around me, and I and they’re they’re making it happen, my core job, sure, is to preach. I’m gonna get up every week, I’m gonna do you know maybe 30 times, I’m gonna preach, and sure, we’re gonna cast vision. But if i’m not if I don’t watch, I can create, ah I can build an empire, essentially, is what this person was saying, where I’m actually not being [inaudible]. Where I can kind of build this thing around me. And I was like, oh that’s an interesting idea. Because that there’s but I think there’s something there. It’s like these people you can you if you don’t have the right rhythms in your life stuff starts to get into your schedule you start doing stuff that you shouldn’t be doing you start thinking about things you shouldn’t be thinking about. You get distracted from the you know, because the thing is running because the thing is systemized. What do you think about that? React – nothing, you know, crazy idea. What do you think?

Danny Anderson — Yeah. You know, that’s I have not heard that. That is a very interesting. I’m processing that as you say that like, huh?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — Our church is like we reach about 8,000 people on a weekend now and I’m thinking holy cow!

Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re not sitting around looking for stuff to do.

Danny Anderson — No. I have I’m like, wow, I have to say no to stuff…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — …because I’m meeting with you know donors…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — …and I’m I’m meeting with my team and on my schedule. My assistant keeps telling me, um hey, I think we’ve we’ve committed to too much.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny Anderson — So I that does not resonate with me. I guess if my, if my goal was to, to kind of build something so that I could maybe have some free time in golf, I could see that being a problem, but I don’t golf, and I like to be busy.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, yeah. I thought it was an interesting idea. I thought the part that resonated with me was I think as the church grows, as we, you know, when you’re a church of a thousand, a church of two thousand, five thousand, ten thousand, each of those phases demands something different

Danny Anderson — Yes.

Rich Birch — And your leadership has to change. And these kinds of things ah managing our own soul care, although there are some foundational things, like you say, stay committed, stay in the word, what you’re doing at 5.30 in the morning, you have to keep thinking about these at at every level. What does it look like? How do I how do I massage and change? I’m sure you’ve seen over time that your process has changed, what you’ve done, your rhythms have changed because, you know, just things look different.

Danny Anderson — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — So that’s interesting.

Danny Anderson — And my kids have gotten older too, so that really helps.

Rich Birch — Right. That does open up time for sure. Talk to me about on the book, the Church Growth Unleashed, we’re going to put a link in the show notes where people can pick up this. This actually struck me as the kind of thing that a team could read together. It was like, hey, this could be a good framing for us. I talked about earlier this idea of like, you need to talk about these things so that your team kind of like mirrors back. To me, this was like one of these like, hey, let’s let’s let’s have Danny talk to us about these things through this book. And then that will kind of create a conversation for us where we can get outside of it and look at it and say, what do we think about that? How are we doing?

Rich Birch — Can you picture that? What but what could this look like if I if I went through this with my team?

Danny Anderson — Yeah, I think it’s ah it would be a great discussion starter. I don’t think pastors talk about this stuff. Like I have a whole chapter in there on friendship. I don’t think pastors talk about that. They don’t talk about their friends…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …because it’s really hard for a pastor to have friends. It’s really hard for staff members to have friends.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Like how do you have friends? Like all the people in your life go to your church. Like how how does that look?

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Danny Anderson — How do you strike that balance? I have a whole chapter in there on your physical health and how your physical health affects your your your ability to to serve and lead and do your job. like Pastors don’t talk about that stuff. Listen, most pastors are out of shape and overweight.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Danny Anderson — So why would you why would you talk about being in healthy when you’re not healthy?

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — So this is a book that really puts its finger on like some of the key issues ah that affect ah leadership and having a healthy balance between being really good at your job, but also ah being super healthy in your… Like I have a whole chapter on family where…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Danny Anderson — …how do you balance the this the the tensions of, like I know some churches and staffs, they’re so out of balance.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Oh my gosh, I was i heard about a church the other day that did six services on Christmas Eve.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Six.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And look, i’m all I’m all about reaching lost people. I think it’s awesome.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — But six services on Christmas Eve?

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Like and and they’re like rejoicing and praising God. And hey, I’m sure a lot of people got saved. I’m sure it was awesome. But I’m thinking about guess who I’m thinking about, Rich?

Rich Birch — Yeah, the families. Yeah, for sure.

Danny Anderson — Their staff, their staff, they you know, they just had services on Saturday, on Sunday, and then you turn around and do six Christmas Eve service. Anyway, I’m not dogging the church. I mean, I love reaching people.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Danny Anderson — But but man, if they don’t get that balance worked out, their staff will get burned out.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Danny Anderson — And then they’ll resent the work, you know? And so, you know, it’s really it’s really a book about, you know, helping people talk about the the important things that need to be discussed and work through to have a healthy balance of of ministry and life.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, like I say, friends, we’ve got a link to the show notes in link in the show notes. You can also pick it up in Amazon and I’m sure where other where books are sold, that sort of thing. We want to point people to that. I don’t want to miss an opportunity to talk about the podcast as well. I had an honor of being on an episode.

Danny Anderson — Yes, you did. Thank you for that.

Rich Birch — But tell us a little bit about, now, tell us a little bit about the podcast. I will put a link to that as well. We want people to check that out. And I think it would be a great kind of companion to what we’re doing here on unSeminary for sure.

Danny Anderson — Yeah. So, I mean, the Church Growth Unleashed is a podcast to help pastors, church leaders, and ministry leaders. I mean, I had the host of the unSeminary podcast on there last month.

Rich Birch — Oh, sure.

Danny Anderson — So that’s the quality.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — No, no, no. Listen, that’s the quality of people I try to have on there. And we just, hey, we just talk about this stuff. We talk about everything that that pastors go through, ministry leaders go through in ah in an authentic way. Like I’m an open book. Like I talk about everything. Because I want pastors to to have a place where they could be like, man, this guy gets me.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — Or I was wondering about that, or no one’s ever talked about that before, or I needed somebody to say that. Because that’s what I needed as a young pastor. Like, I need help. And so that’s basic it’s basically, it’s basically the same heart as your podcast, just to help pastors, help ministry leaders to be effective as possible.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Good, I’d love, like I say, we’ll put we’ll put links to the show notes down there and do the podcasts and the books and all that stuff. Danny, this has been super encouraging. conversation today. I love what you’re doing. I love what Emmanuel’s up to. I love the balance that you, you know, have that you’re striking. You know, Emmanuel is, I love a church that’s aggressive for the gospel. That’s like, hey, we want to do stuff to reach people. And you can see that in the way you guys act, which is great. But then at the same time, you’re raising all these values and us, you know, frankly, some of these deeper questions that it can be easy to just not think about. And so I i just want to honor you for doing that. I think it’s incredible. So, so great to connect today.

Danny Anderson — Well, thank you, Rich. You’re doing a great job. Love everything you do. Love your books. They’ve had a huge impact on my life. Keep writing them. Keep keep pumping into us.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Nice.

Danny Anderson — I know your audience is it gets tremendous value from this podcast and so do I, so thanks for what you do.

Rich Birch — Where do we want to send people online to connect with you or to connect with the church just as we wrap up today?

Danny Anderson — Yeah, so on Instagram, it’s @dannyanderson23. And that’s my Instagram handle. And then the the church website is eclife.org, eclife.org.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Danny Anderson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Danny. Appreciate you being here today.

Danny Anderson — Hey, thanks, Rich. God bless.