“Daddy, Why Are You Here?” The Question That Exposed Burnout with Alvin Sanders

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Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Alvin Sanders, President and CEO of World Impact, an organization committed to equipping leaders to build healthy churches in every community experiencing poverty. After decades in pastoral ministry and leadership development, Alvin has become passionate about helping ministry leaders avoid one of the greatest threats to long-term effectiveness: burnout.

Are you serving faithfully but feeling increasingly exhausted? Wondering how to sustain ministry for the long haul without sacrificing your health, family, or relationship with God? In this conversation, Alvin shares the personal lessons that transformed his own leadership after experiencing burnout. Tune in as he offers a practical framework for building a ministry that lasts.

• When work becomes worship. // Ministry itself can quietly become an idol. He didn’t intentionally choose work over God, but somewhere along the way, serving Christ replaced walking with Christ. Spiritual disciplines gave way to ministry responsibilities. Prayer, Sabbath, retreat, fasting, and personal communion with God slowly disappeared beneath endless demands. The result was a ministry that looked productive on the outside while becoming spiritually unsustainable on the inside.
• Return to the basics of spiritual formation. // Rather than searching for complicated solutions, Alvin returned to the foundational practices Christians have embraced for centuries. Prayer, engaging Scripture, fasting, Sabbath, retreat, generosity, commitment to the Church body, and intentional spiritual rhythms are not optional extras for ministry leaders. They are essential practices that sustain healthy leadership. Just as championship football teams return to blocking and tackling when they lose, pastors must continually return to the spiritual basics that anchor their lives.
• Pay attention to the warning signs. // In hindsight, Alvin sees numerous warning lights he ignored. His daughter once looked at him during dinner and innocently asked, “Daddy, why are you here?” because she had grown so accustomed to his absence. He gained significant weight, neglected his physical health, ignored emotional exhaustion, and consistently placed ministry ahead of family. None of these issues appeared overnight, but together they revealed a leader drifting toward collapse. Burnout is often less about one dramatic event and more about a thousand small compromises over time.
• Healthy leaders steward their whole person. // Pastors often underestimate the importance of caring for their physical and emotional health. Exercise is no longer something he squeezes into his schedule. Now, it is part of his workday because caring for his body directly affects his ministry. Likewise, emotional health is not separate from spiritual maturity. Leaders who fail to process stress, trauma, criticism, and disappointment eventually carry those burdens into every aspect of ministry. Healthy ministry begins with healthy people.
• A three-legged stool for sustainable ministry. // At World Impact, staff health is built around three interconnected priorities: spiritual formation, engaging stressors, and leadership development. Spiritual formation keeps leaders rooted in Christ. Engaging stressors helps them process trauma, maintain healthy boundaries, and avoid adopting a “savior mentality.” Skill development—including emotional intelligence, leadership growth, and contextual ministry effectiveness—equips leaders to serve wisely. Remove any one of these three “legs,” and long-term ministry becomes unstable.
• If you’re approaching burnout, don’t ignore it. // Alvin closes with practical encouragement for leaders who recognize themselves in his story. First, honestly acknowledge where you are instead of pretending everything is fine. Second, intentionally rest by embracing Sabbath, vacations, and healthy rhythms. Finally, if the burden runs deeper, don’t hesitate to seek help from a trusted counselor. Burnout isn’t a badge of honor—it is a warning that something needs attention.

To learn more about Alvin or World Impact, visit worldimpact.org or connect with Alvin on LinkedIn. You can find his expanded book Redemptive Poverty Work on Amazon and his recent webinar on redemptive poverty work here.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, I know you’ve got a million things going on this week. In fact, if you’ve got a lot of things going on, you really need to set aside the next half an hour or so to lean in on this conversation because I really think this is going to be helpful for you. I know it’s the kind of thing that you and your team is wrestling with plus we have a return guest on the podcast which what that indicates to you is this a person I want you to hear from. Honored to have Reverend Dr. Alvin Sanders with us he is the president and CEO of World Impact which empowers leaders to build healthy churches in communities of diversity and poverty. When urban leaders so when urban leaders are empowered that to own and lead their own ministry, individuals, families, and neighborhoods ultimately flourish. Super excited to have him with us. Enjoyed his episode from maybe a couple years ago and honored to have you back today. Alvin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Alvin Sanders — Glad to be here, Rich, and thanks for having me back.

Rich Birch — Oh, it’s great to connect a little bit. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about yourself, about World Impact. Give us some context if people don’t remember.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah, so President, CEO World Impact – our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty. We’re working to solve the problem that 95% of the world’s pastors have no formal ministry training whatsoever.

Alvin Sanders — So we we try to bring that training to them and make it affordable and accessible. I don’t know if you’re paying attention to what’s going on in the Christian educational world right now in terms of universities, but it’s ugly out there.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Alvin Sanders — So we are really trying to make sure that people are equipped and they can be able to do ministry in the in the context that they’re called to do it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. And I really, friends, I would commend you to to, if you don’t know World Impact, you should get to know them. You know, all them and the team do such good good work here. Well, we I want us I want you to take us back to 2007, so almost 20 years ago, which is insane to say that that’s 20 years ago, because it doesn’t feel like 20 years ago. It feels like just yesterday.

Rich Birch — What was going on in your ministry and life? Yeah, kind of bring us into that part of the story. Let’s start there.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So in 2007, I was wrapping up a 10-year project of planting and starting a church in inner city Cincinnati. And the denomination that I was a part of, the Evangelical Free Church of America, had offered me a position to leave the pastorate and to come work for them and run what’s called our “all people initiative”.

Alvin Sanders — So me and my wife prayed, thought about it and said, yep, you know what? It’s time to make a good transition. And we made that transition. Yet for the first six months after that transition, we were, it was really a weird dynamic in the fact that when we would run into other people, people would say, hey, you guys look so much better than…, I mean, they didn’t say it this directly…

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — …but essentially what they were saying is you look so much better now that you’re out of the pastorate.

Rich Birch — Right. What happened? You look great.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah. What happened? You look good. Did you, did you lose weight? Did you, you know, glasses, whatever, you know?

Rich Birch — Oh, no. You’re like, thank you, I think.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah, and Rich, this wasn’t like a small amount of people. It was like every time we ran into people. So after about six months of this, we were like, okay, so what’s going on? And then we when we looked back in hindsight, felt like the last year or so of being in the pastorate, we had burned out.

Alvin Sanders — And up until that point, I really didn’t know what burnout was. You kind of sort of hear about it, but you don’t really think about it. Why? Because you’re too busy, right? So you don’t sit back and think about ordering the chaos of ministry or anything of that nature.

Alvin Sanders — And so we vowed that going forward, never again would this happen to us. So essentially I divide my ministry life in the two halves.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — The first half is pre-2007. It’s kind of like how people look at the pandemic, right?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Alvin Sanders — So it’s like pre-2007 and then post 2007. And so we began to implement a series of things that helped us to be able to do ministry in a sustainable way and not experience burnout because you do not have to burn out doing ministry. That’s what I’ve learned since 2007.

Rich Birch — Yeah, when you so when you think about that time, yeah, I love that. Like, hey, friends, thanks for telling me I look great. Or you look terrible a year ago. Okay, thanks.

Rich Birch — When you look back on at that moment, you’re like, hey, I think we were burnt out. What were some of those those patterns, habits, evidence, signs that you look at and were like, oh, that is what was going on there? You know, what what was it that, you know, got you, yeah, that you kind of saw it yourself in that moment as you looked back?

Alvin Sanders — In hindsight, what I looked at is we were basically on autopilot. When I first started that ministry project, I felt a call. I felt like I was walking with the Lord. I felt the Holy Spirit’s presence. You know it was like hindsight, it’s like the book of Acts stuff. You know it was kind of like God was right there. I was energized. I was excited. I truly wanted to make a difference in the lives and the hearts of the people who were there. I wanted to make a difference in the community.

Alvin Sanders — But that last year or so, I look back at it. It was just 60, 70 hours a week, flip the switch, doing what I need to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — Very jaded, cynical all the time, low energy, you know, vacation didn’t matter because I had to go back to work. You know, these are, you know, it was sort of like a call of duty, so to speak. It was this is my duty to do it.

Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Interesting.

Alvin Sanders — Right.

Rich Birch — So now you made a few decisions to, you know, in the words you use was, we do a series of things. We changed the way that we work. What were those things that you changed? What were some of those things when you look back, now that you’re on the other side of that, what were some of those decisions you made to say, hey, we’re going to live in a different way? And what was what was that? You know, what is that? What were some of those?

Alvin Sanders — Well, one of the big things that I realized, and it’s going to sound elementary when I say it, but I think as pastors and people in ministry, we forget about the basic things.

Alvin Sanders — You know, I’m a big football fan, Ohio State Buckeyes to be exact, right? And so I remember, I can’t remember which one of those coaches, but I remember one of those coaches, I was listening to an interview one day and they said, hey, you know, when we lose, our first practice back is we go back to the basics.

Alvin Sanders — Just basic stuff. That’s all we do. Blocking, tackling, you know, simple things. And one of the things we did was we went back to the basics of what it means to be a Christian. You know, over the years, they call that spiritual formation.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Alvin Sanders — So the basic things of are you praying? Are you fasting?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — You know, you know, just if you type in spiritual formation in Google, you’re going to get a gazillion things that pop up. Right?

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Alvin Sanders — Well, we should be doing many of those things.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — You know, retreating. You should not be accessible all the time. Sabbath. You know, it’s Hebrews 11 tells us that, you know, we’re among a great cloud of witnesses and that great cloud of witnesses are our people who, any and everybody who has ever been Christian ever in in in the entire history of the world. And Rich, hate to break it to you, but it’s not rocket science of how to be a good Christian.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — We just ignore it.

Rich Birch — Yes. Right. True.

Alvin Sanders — Because there have been people before us who have worked out, hey, these are the rhythms. These are the things that you do…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Alvin Sanders — …you know, to be Christian.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Alvin Sanders — And what had suddenly happened is I made work my worship.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s painful.

Alvin Sanders — The job became what I worship. Now, I didn’t intentionally set out to do that, but I had so much passion and I had so much zeal to want to make a difference in the world that suddenly the rhythms of what made you a Christian took a backseat to the work that I was doing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I want to come back to that. I want to put a bookmark in you made work your worship. I think that’s a powerful idea. I want to come back to that. But just before we leave this idea, you know, I love that the football analogy. I had and a nephew that was a receiver, college ball receiver. And I remember talking to him, you know, once as well.

Rich Birch — And I was like, like, tell me, what you know, kind of what is your practice look like? And how are you, how do you keep on top of that? And he said, he said, well, you know, I’ve got these three formations, these three patterns that we run. And he’s like, I just run those formations all day long.

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — It’s like, you just, you know, it’s like the same, you know, four steps this way, three steps that way, you know, turn, you know, it’s like, I’m just do that for four years. We’re just going to run that, which stuck with me similarly that, you know, I think oftentimes, you we can complicate this and we can say, hey, that you know we can complicate staying connected to praying, fasting, Sabbath, reading scripture, these kinds of things. We can drop them.

Rich Birch — Were there any other warning signs looking back now that you missed? Again, in hindsight, you look back and say, oh, there were some some things on the dashboard that were blinking and I didn’t notice that you were leading up to this breaking point.

Rich Birch — Were there other things in your life besides these dropping off that you know, that you, again, in in hindsight noticed and maybe are looking for now?

Alvin Sanders — There was zero what they call work/life balance.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — Zero.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — At that time, I was working on my PhD. I was pastoring a church full time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — And I was running the church’s Christian Community Development Corporation that was attached to it.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Alvin Sanders — And oh, by the way, I was also teaching classes at the local Bible college.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Alvin Sanders — And had a wife and I had two kids.

Rich Birch —Yep.

Alvin Sanders — And so I remember during that period, a huge red flag that in hindsight, I’m ashamed to say, I did not pay attention to. One Friday night I was sitting down and I was eating dinner with my family and my youngest, Gabby, she looked up in her little toddler face and she said, Daddy, why are you here?

Alvin Sanders — And I said, what do you mean? I’m I’m sitting here. I’m I’m eating dinner. You know I’m here. You know she’s and she and she was so confused that I was home.

Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.

Alvin Sanders — So that’s so that was a neglect of family. Right.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Alvin Sanders — That was a huge red flag.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Alvin Sanders — Gained a ton of weight because I was not taking care of myself physically. I think that’s something we underestimate in ministry.

Rich Birch — I agree.

Alvin Sanders — You know, to the point now that I even I count when I go work out, that’s part of my work day.

Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.

Alvin Sanders — Because I said I can’t be a successful minister if if I am not in shape. So I see that as a you know, I don’t have this sort of dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual, all that. No, I it’s all one. You know, it’s going to hurt me spiritually if I’m out of shape, if I’m not eating right, I’m not properly fit and all those types of things.

Alvin Sanders — So I wasn’t taking care of myself physically. I clearly was not taking care of myself emotionally.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Alvin Sanders — We are emotional beings. We are emotional. I have come to believe, and this is maybe a controversial point, but I don’t know. It’s my belief. I have come to believe, Rich, that we are emotional beings that rationalize our lives with facts.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Alvin Sanders — But there’s a lot of research out there that says we can think we’re rational all we want, but what we really do, we have never made a rational decision that does not agree with our emotions.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — So we must take care of ourselves.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Alvin Sanders — I was not taking care of myself emotionally.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — Therefore, out of shape physically, neglecting family, which by the way, God says that’s the first ministry, you’re supposed to lead well. So if you’re not leading your family well, it really doesn’t matter what else you’re doing, you know. And just an emotional, just not emotionally regulated is the easiest way that I can say it. Didn’t know I wasn’t emotionally regulated, but I wasn’t.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. You know, the Carey Nieuwhof, friend of mine, ah you know, he says around this whole that topic, he says, you know, if you’re an alcoholic and you stumble into work one day drunk, you know, you get fired, or you or there’s a consequence, right? If you are a gambler and you’re addicted to gambling and you know you lose your house, that’s gonna show up and you know you’re gonna lose your house, there’s consequence to that. And you know one of those might be you lose your job.

Rich Birch — But this area of like overworking, if we overwork even in good things, you’re rewarded for it. Like, you’re like, way to go. You’re a good soldier.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, there’s, it’s almost like a badge of honor in ministry to be exhausted for Jesus. When you said, man, I made work my worship, that stung because I was like, ooh, I think I’ve done that before.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah. I mean…

Rich Birch — So take us inside, you know, ah other leaders’, you know, heads. How does that mindset quietly quietly set us up for this crash? How do we, you know, kind of unpack that even more for us?

Alvin Sanders — Yeah, I mean, I say all the time I’m a recovering work workaholic.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — You know, that’s the way I put it.

Alvin Sanders — And then a big thing that really set me up for this that I didn’t realize is that I come from a family of workaholics. You know, my father, who is my hero, other people have heroes outside of the household. My father is my hero. He’s 87 now, that’s my guy.

Rich Birch — It’s so good. Yeah.

Alvin Sanders — He, I grew up in a household, my father grew up in Jim Crow, Alabama. And he overcame so much.

Rich Birch — Right. Incredible.

Alvin Sanders — He went to when he joined the military, military was was sort of like a saving grace. He was in the military for 30 years.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Alvin Sanders — And he went to night school and he got two degrees in night school while working during the day.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Alvin Sanders — You know, my mom was an old farm was a was a farm girl, you know. Protestant work ethic. You know, you want she would say, son, you want to kill time, work it to death. You know, idle hands is the devil’s workshop. You know I grew up on all these idioms.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes.

Alvin Sanders — And, and so that was in my DNA. And just by the fact that we live in United States of America, where busyness is a badge of honor, I believe you said, and we all are under the Protestant work ethic, you know, you know, who, what, what, what bum works only 40 hours.

Alvin Sanders — I mean, you want to get ahead.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Alvin Sanders — The minimum is 50.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Right.

Alvin Sanders — You know, when I was pastoring, how many people in my congregation, you know, in terms of the white collar crew, you know, I had ah I had all spectrums in the church that I was in, I pastored. It was no big deal for them to just be gone all the time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — If you get offered a promotion, who would tell you don’t accept it for the sake of your family?

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — Of course I’m going to accept it. It’s more money…

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — …because more money puts us in a better position…or doesn’t it?

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — It might, or might not. So counterintuitive thinking is something that we have to do. I mean, I’m in a place now where um God has blessed me that I have a lot of opportunities and I limit my opportunities. Because I say if if I’m gone all the time again, guess what I’m on the road to?

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — You know, and we may have a little bit more money, but then, you know, I’m in the I’m in the empty nesthood stage of season of life and I’d be missing valuable time with my wife. So it’s a reordering of the priorities, you know?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. And this is one of those areas where I see hope in you know next generation. You know i see hope in Gen Z leaders. There there is, like I think, a healthy pushback on on some of this area, which is I think is positive. I know sometimes, you know, I’m Gen X, classic Gen X, born 1974, the lowest birth rate year of the 20th century.

Alvin Sanders — Yes. Yeah.

Rich Birch — And, you know, and I think sometimes, you know, my peers and particularly the folks older than me, that generation, they they really did, they handed down this idea. And you know, there’s good change happening, I think, on this front.

Rich Birch — But so how do you think about this now? So, you know, as you’re thinking about the future, or maybe you’re coaching your team, people you’re interacting with, you know, how do you kind of articulate this, maybe with a framework or thinking around this, so that we don’t just pass on more burnt out organizations?

Rich Birch — How how are you helping, you know, lead an organization? Because I think there’s the reason why asked that question is I think it can be easy for us folks that are in charge. I run my own organization. I like often joke, like my boss is a bit of a taskmaster because it’s me, you know. But you know, when, but when we’re the people in charge, we get to set the pace. We get to lead in a way. How are you leading different now? How are you helping your people understand this different now? What are, how are you, what’s that look like for you?

Alvin Sanders — Yes. So we, we have baked in in the cake at World Impact. Um, three things, three areas. We talked, we touched on it before spiritual formation, you know, that’s a big deal here at World Impact.

Alvin Sanders — You know, we, we really want to make sure that people understand your work is not your worship. You know, part of our sustainable strategy is, you know, we care more about who you are than what you do. And we mean that.

Alvin Sanders — And it’s funny because when you first say that to some people, they go, oh well, you don’t want me to work. It’s like, no we didn’t say that. What we said is we understand you are a human being. And we care about you and we’re going to invest deeply in you as you invest deeply into our our our vision. And so um making sure that work’s not to worship, make sure that people understand our identity is in Christ.

Alvin Sanders — Understanding also the the spiritual disciplines. We incorporate eight particular spiritual disciplines. I probably should know them the my head, but I don’t. But let me see, I mean, I can roll off the top of my head.

Alvin Sanders — Let’s see, you got church membership. You know, we, we, and It’s not cool, you know, to be a church member and people love to kill the church and criticize the church and this that the other. But I leave that to the accuser of the brethren to use the KJV version and use that to the devil.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Alvin Sanders — Jesus came to establish the church. Period. End of discussion. So you ought to be part of one. So, you know, we encourage our folks to be part of churches, to fast, to pray.

Alvin Sanders — We have three times a year we’ve shut everything down and we have prayer days. You know, we we encourage people to be generous with their money. We encourage people to empower others. You know, so there’s we we we encourage we have a personal retreat days that we offer people for for, it’s a work day, but it’s a different kind of structured work day. We say we’ll give you one day a month where you go off and you examine yourself. You do a spiritual examen off basically, you know, off the old St. Ignatius type of spiritual examen. And then you also look at your professional development. You go off and we do that and we’ll pay you for that.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s great.

Alvin Sanders — You know, so there are a number of things that we do in terms of developing a rhythm. We call, you know, having a rhythm.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — You know, so a lot of spiritual formation. And then the other s is we look at the, you could think of these S’s as three S’s or a three-legged stool that serves the foundation and they’re all intertwined.

Alvin Sanders — So besides spiritual formation, we also encourage people to engage stressors, right? We there’s there’s a way that you work in the world. There’s I got this from my friends at Praxis that there’s three ways that you can engage the world. You can engage the world um exploitatively, ethically or redemptively.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — So we want people to we want our staff to engage the world, and engage their jobs in a redemptive manner, which is, you know, sacrificing our lives in the pattern of Jesus Christ. Right. That’s we follow the pattern of Jesus Christ, that that we are doing this in order to make the world a better place.

Alvin Sanders — We also have a posture of that we’re not the saviors. Many people who are in ministry, we get in it for the right reasons, but then we think that we’re the king and not a subject of the kingdom. Right. And so we think that whatever ministry we’re in, whether it’s urban, suburban, whatever it may be, that we’re the saviors. It’s like, no no, no, no, that’s not the right posture. The right posture is that to be utilized by God, you know.

Alvin Sanders — And then also anybody who’s been in ministry any any time in their life, any, you know, they are going to experience a lot of what’s called secondary trauma.

Alvin Sanders — You know, like mine was very intense being in a very violent neighborhood and ministering there. But even in suburban context, there’s a lot of things. Now, Rich, don’t know if you ever experienced this, but, you know, people, the sheep bite.

Rich Birch — True.

Alvin Sanders — They talk about the pastor.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Alvin Sanders — They do a lot of things. You know, you’re misinterpreted all the time. There’s a lot of hurtful things that happen to you…

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.

Alvin Sanders — …from an emotional perspective. And if you if you try to blow them off or roll them under, you know, let them it’s water under the bridge. No, no, no. Those things need to be engaged.

Alvin Sanders — So that’s keeping the right posture, making sure we keep the right pace in ministry. So we have one school of spiritual formation, one one one leg stool of engaging stressors. And then the third leg stool is is skill set development.

Alvin Sanders — And we have to understand that developing the right skills will not save us from burnout. That’s a false dichotomy. People think, oh, well, if I just develop X, Y, and z well, then, you know, I won’t burn out. No. um There are three primary skill sets that I think people need to understand when it comes to any type of ministry or wherever they’re doing it. A big one is emotional intelligence.

Alvin Sanders — It’s there’s a guy by name of Daniel Goldman who really popularized the concept. He wrote this book years and years ago called “Primal Leadership”. And that book makes the case that therere there are things that you can develop to emotionally regulate yourself.

Alvin Sanders — There’s a book they they don’t call it emotional intelligence, but it’s another classic called “Leadership and Self-Deception”. It’s a classic book which teaches you how you can engage the workplace and and by emotionally regulating yourself, which I think is directly correlated to spiritual maturity.

Rich Birch — True.

Alvin Sanders — There’s also the skill set of leadership development. I believe that everybody is a leader, right? We don’t all have the same responsibilities as leaders, but there are things that we can do to develop ourselves to become better leaders in the situations that we find ourselves in.

Alvin Sanders — And then there’s also a a skill set that we can develop where we engage our ministry context in a dignified manner. So that’s sort of like our three-legged stool at World Impact, you know, spiritual formation, engaging stressors and skill set. And you can’t, just like a stool, if you remove one of the legs…

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — …the stool will not work. So all three have to be intertwined and working together to give you that strong foundation. And if you do those things, I have found that, you know, you won’t touch burnout. Because…

Rich Birch — Right. It’s so good.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So I’m very, very focused on that. And we have interwoven all of those things within the DNA of World Impact.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah, I love…

Rich Birch — There’s there’s so much to unpack there, friends. And there’s, you know, in six minutes there, you gave us what a great picture of how we should be thinking and leading in our environments. I love, particularly, you know, you talked you touched on the emotional quotient, the eq issue.

Rich Birch — And, um you know, I’ve had a a friend of mine say, you know, it’s it’s impossible to be spiritually mature if you’re emotionally immature. And I think…

Alvin Sanders — One hundred percent.

Rich Birch — I think that’s true. And there are, we all know these people who they they walk around like they’re spiritually mature, but they’re they’re, you know, emotionally immature and it comes off. It’s like they’re bleeding. It’s like the internet’s made for these people.

Rich Birch — Like they are, those people get good followings, which is terrible. And you know, they get people around them who are just like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. It’s usually sirs. Unfortunately, it’s a lot of guys…

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — …you know, we’ve got to fight that. And I love that you’re, you’re attempting to do that, you know, at, you know, in the organization you lead at World Impact, I think is, is incredible. And one of the things, you know, calling this out, I’m not directly engaged in urban ministry, but the thing I, I think is, like, I think every ministry has its stressors to it.

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — I think every ministry has trauma related to it. And I think what you’ve outlined here, we can apply really in any context.

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — But I do want to underline for our listeners, the fact that this has come out of a context where, again, I don’t want to stigmatize or create stereotypes around urban ministry, but there is a lot of trauma. There is a lot of stress in the ministry.

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — You know When you’re dealing in communities that are experiencing homelessness and poverty and you know, you know at the conflict, at the you know the epicenter of racial conflict, and you know all ah all of that creates the context that makes it next to impossible to serve in. And the fact that you’re leading there, I just want to commend you you know on that.

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — And so this is actually a part of, well, talk to me about the expanded second edition of “Redemptive Poverty Work” and how does that tie into what we’re talking about today? Because I want to move people even towards that call to action out of today’s conversation.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So the the things that I’ve talked about that I just talked about that we instilled at World Impact, it definitely works in in any context, no doubt about it. What I tell my suburban colleagues is that whatever you experience in the suburbs, 10x it. And that’s in the urban context.

Rich Birch — That makes sense. Okay, that’s good.

Alvin Sanders — Just 10x it. It’s not that you don’t experience these things.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — It’s that it’s much more intense…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Alvin Sanders — …within the urban context.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Alvin Sanders — So the expanded edition of “Redemptive Poverty Work” is is my attempt to really have our vision at World Impact come to fruition. Because at World Impact, if our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty, we cannot not talk about burnout.

Alvin Sanders — Because the burnout rate within the urban context, because of the 10X that happens down there in in this in the urban community—but increasingly in suburban communities, to be quite honest with you. The same dynamics are happening in certain suburban communities—is that you have to be able to deal with it. And the big way that you deal with it is that you are intentionally engaging those things that can cause you to burn out.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — Cause you cannot have a healthy church unless you have spiritually formed pastors who are engaging stressors and who are developing the skillset to make the community a better place.

Alvin Sanders — So, It was basically by doing things in the field and spending a lot of time with our partners that I said, you know what, these folk need an expansion. Because when I wrote “Redemptive Poverty Work” a couple of years ago that we talked about, it was a little booklet and it was more academic.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — But what I realized is, hey, these folk need to know how to implement this in a practical sense. So that’s what the expanded version is about. It’s not only teaching you the principle, it’s like, here here’s how you can apply this to your life. It’s sort of like a field handbook, so to speak.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. I think it’d be great for people to pick up, you know, a copy of this. And, you know, I think it could be really helpful for them as they’re thinking about, you know, ministry in any context. Even to help if there are folks that are listening in, you know, that serve in a suburban context and they’re trying to gain, you know, a bit more understanding of there are urban, but you know, brothers and sisters as they’re, you know, leading there. I think this could be a helpful resource.

Rich Birch — For folks that picked up the first edition, you know, should they pick pick up a second? I know you’re not just trying to sell books, but like, help me understand, you know, obviously you’ve added a lot to it. For folks that are familiar with your work, what would your, you know, kind of what’s your recommendation that, you know, for them?

Alvin Sanders — Yes, because the the first Redemptive Poverty Work booklet is really only one chapter in the expanded edition. It’s, as I said earlier, it’s really about how to apply and how not to burn out.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Alvin Sanders — The whole thing is it assumes that there’s a point in your walk in doing your work of the ministry that you’re going you’re going to hit a wall

Rich Birch — Yep.

Alvin Sanders — I don’t know anyone in ministry, let alone urban ministry, who hasn’t at some point hit a wall.

Rich Birch — Right.

Alvin Sanders — Right. To go back to sports analogy. Right. Talk about how if you’re a rookie and you’re coming into the and NBA, you only play like 40 or some college games. NBA has 82 games. No matter how skilled you are, no matter how much you play, about game 50, you’re going to hit a wall because you’ve never really played at that intense level for that long.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Alvin Sanders — Same thing with ministry.

Alvin Sanders — At some point, you’re going to hit a wall. So within this urban context, you know when you hit that wall or hopefully before you hit the wall, read this book and begin to implement it in your life. It’s a failure for you just to buy the book and read it.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Alvin Sanders — A lot of books you just write, you buy it and you read it and you go, oh, I got the knowledge. I’m good. No, this book is like, read it and apply it. And I can tell you, it’ll work if you do so.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Where do we want to send people to pick up copies of the book? Where online? you know how how can they How can they get their hands on it?

Alvin Sanders — Yeah, just go to Amazon. you can get it off of Amazon. Redemptive Poverty Work Expanded Edition.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Alvin Sanders — You type that in or you can type in Alvin Sanders and I’m sure it’ll pop up.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Alvin Sanders — Yeah, we’d we’d love for you to get it. You know, got paperback and hardback versions that are there.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Alvin Sanders — And then you can also go on YouTube. We just had it. We launched it last week. We had a webinar…

Rich Birch — Great.

Alvin Sanders — …around the topic of redemptive poverty work. It was about an hour long. So if you’re really interested in this topic, you can check that webinar out as well.

Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, we’ll link to that in the show notes to make it even easier for folks to to find that. We’d love for for people to track with you, Alvin. You’re doing such a great, great work. So let’s take us back to 2007.

Rich Birch — Let’s say there’s a leader who’s listening into, well, I know that there’s a leader who’s listening in today. There’s at least one…

Alvin Sanders — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …in the couple thousand people that are listening in who are heading towards where you were in 2007. Not the new part, not the new job part, but the like, oh, I’m burnt out.

Alvin Sanders — Yes.

Rich Birch — This is not good. Maybe today they’ve been listening in and they realize, oh, wait a second. Maybe they had a similar thing with their kid. Hey, dad. Hey, mom. Why are you here? What’s one thing you’d want them to do this week? What’s one action step that they could take coming out of today’s conversation?

Alvin Sanders — Well, I would say, I’m going to cheat. I’m going to give you more than one. But first is to admit where you’re at.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — Because there are so I hate to say it. There are some faith traditions where it’s downright almost sinful to admit that you might be burned out. What? You don’t you don’t pray enough. You don’t do this. You don’t do that. Say, you know what? I’m tired. I’m still committed, but I’m tired. I’m jaded. I’m whatever. So the first thing is to embrace that.

Alvin Sanders — The second thing is, you know, get some rest. You might it might just be an Elijah situation. You know, Elijah wanted to die and God said, no, man, just just go lay down.

Rich Birch — Yeah, have a nap.

Alvin Sanders — You know, you just had a really, really intense situation. Go lay down. Take some time. Go take a nap. Get some refreshment. Get some food. Look at your schedule and say, am I actually taking at least one day a week off? You know, are what’s your rhythm of rest, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Alvin Sanders — Are you resting as hard as you’re working?



Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — Are you taking vacation? You know, or is vacation for the weak, right? Are you taking your paid holidays off? Do, actually really start to take the commandment of Sabbath seriously…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — …and actually start to rest?

Alvin Sanders — And then there are some of us, and, you know, and there’s nothing wrong with this either. We may be too far gone, and we may need to take some time to go see a counselor, and to unpack things.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Alvin Sanders — And to unpack some emotional wounds and things of that nature. So I would say, you know, first, acknowledge where you’re at. Second, actually start to rest. And then third, if these things aren’t really working, don’t be prideful. Go see a mental health counselor.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Alvin, you’ve been a gift again to our audience. Thank you so much for for being here today, for helping us think through these issues and take some steps. If people want to track with you or with World Impact, where do we want to send them online?

Alvin Sanders — Well, if you want to track with me, you know, as a good Gen Xer like you, I’m on LinkedIn. So you just place to find me.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.

Alvin Sanders — It’s LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn. I have an Instagram account. I ain’t been on that Instagram account in forever. So, you know, that’s just not me. But you can find me on LinkedIn.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Alvin Sanders — If you want to personally interact, talk, whatever. Great thing to do on LinkedIn. And then the other thing is go to worldimpact.org and you can learn a lot more about World Impact and what we do.

Alvin Sanders — We’d love to serve you.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking some time to be with us.

Alvin Sanders — All right. Thanks for having me.