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Thanks for joining us for today’s unSeminary podcast. Carey Nieuwhof has been a guiding light in the church leadership space for decades and this week we’re celebrating the ten-year anniversary of his podcast. To mark this special occasion, we’re revisiting an interview we did with him 10 years ago.

Do you have things at your church that you wish would just change? Do you have people that are resisting change, pushing against what you think is God’s vision for the future of your church? Tune in for the timeless wisdom and powerful insights Carey shares on leading change in your church.

• Don’t expect automatic change. // Leading change is a skill, but the good news is that it’s a skill that can be learned. Leaders want change, but may expect others to buy into it before it’s been rolled out. Leaders then become frustrated when people don’t change. The reality is that people don’t automatically change and typically don’t like change. As the leader, it’s your job to show people a preferred future and to lead them there.
• There will be resistance. // Opposition is a normal part of leading change. Everyone who is in your church today is there because they like it as it is now. There will be alienation among some of the congregation who will think things were better before the change. One mistake a lot of leaders make is assuming that loud equals large. Often the loudest opponents are only a small part of your congregation. It’s up to you to do the math and see what percentage of your people is really pushing back against the vision you feel God has given you. This group usually doesn’t have a competing vision for a better future and it’s not worth sacrificing 90% for the 10% who are discontent.
• Have the humility to listen. // When you are addressing opposition, ask two questions. One, is there a biblical argument in the pushback? If there is, you do need to listen. The leader doesn’t always know best and doesn’t speak for God. Have the humility to listen but the wisdom to act on the things that will determine a better future.
• Is this your target? // Secondly when facing opposition, ask are these the kind of people you are going to build the future of the church on? You need to focus on who you are going to reach, not who you are going to keep. You’ll only ever hear from the people already there, not from the unchurched people you’re trying to reach. Think about the person who isn’t in the room, not just the one who is.
• Focus on the why. // Disagreements usually aren’t an issue of character, mission, or vision. Instead they are usually an issue of strategy. When leading change it’s critical to explain your “why” in all of your communications before talking about the “what” and the “how”. Why almost always unites while what and how almost always divide.
• Rolling out communication. // Communicate change in concentric circles, starting with the core team to gather input before expanding the conversation to broader circles. This approach helps build support and creates a sense of ownership among team members and congregation.
• Innovate and experiment. // Maintain core successes while exploring new ideas on the side. The longer you’re in leadership and the more successful you are, the more tempting it is to avoid change. An organization that loses it’s experimental and entrepreneurial side will fall off the cliff at some point. Preserve what God has built but never stop pushing yourself to innovate, experiment, and fail.

To follow along with Connexus Church, visit connexuschurch.com. Explore Carey’s website and listen to his podcast at careynieuwhof.com.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Happy Thursday, everybody. Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for today’s episode. You know, my friend, Carey Nieuwhof, has been podcasting for ten years. I just want to say that unSeminary was launched before Carey’s – I remember we got started the year before and but man, his podcast has gone just meteoric. He’s become so incredibly influential, through his podcasts, through all the different things that he does. And I just want to celebrate him. Carey’s a friend of mine, personal friend, know him from the real world. We actually live in the same town. I’ve had the privilege of working for Carey and we continue to do stuff together, but I thought what would be fun to celebrate the launch of Carey’s podcast is to actually go back into the unSeminary vault from ten years ago and replay a podcast interview that we had with Carey all the way back then.

Rich Birch — And I was really listening to this episode recently, and man, it just does not get old. Carey is really evergreen when it comes to content. And in this particular episode, I was talking to Carey about change, and he talks about the fact that change is a skill. He gives some great stuff around handling resistant resistance, focusing on who you want to reach, building consensus, navigating personal challenges. It really is a fantastic episode. So I thought in celebration of Carey’s ten years of podcasting, that we’d go back and look at an episode from ten years ago and you’ll catch some of the brilliance of Carey that really is timeless.

Rich Birch — Carey, my hat goes off to you. You, I love that your influence continues to grow. I love that you continue to help people. For friends who are listening in, Carey’s the real deal. You should follow him. He’s a man of integrity. He’s the kind of leader that you should spend time getting to know. So for a long time listeners, you’re going to hear some retro unSeminary goodness. Our old opener, and some other fun stuff that we haven’t done in a long time. But here we are. Without any further ado, a ten-year-old interview with our friend, Carey Nieuwhof.

[unSeminary Opener]

Rich Birch — Hey everybody, happy Thursday. Rich Birch from the unSeminary podcast. Thank you for tuning in. 

Rich Birch — Do you have things at your church that you wish would just change? Do you have people that are resisting change, that you’re just are pushing against what you think is God’s vision for the future of your church? Well, today you are in for a treat because we’ve got a special guest, Carey Nieuwhof, who I think is one of the smartest leaders in the country on the whole organizational change issue.

Rich Birch — He’s got some great stuff to say. Let’s jump into the podcast and make sure you come back after the interview because I’ve got a few resources I want to share with you.

Rich Birch — Alright, well welcome to the show. I’m so privileged to have Carey Nieuwhof on with us. Carey is a leader, writer, he’s a pastor, blogger, author. And I’m privileged to call him a friend.

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah, Absolutely.

Rich Birch — And so thank you, Carey, for being on the show.

Carey Nieuwhof — Hey, thanks for having me, Rich. I’m really excited to be here, and excited about your podcast too.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much! Well, you know, Carey, you’re one of those leaders I feel like has been through a lot of change. You’ve seen a lot happen. I wonder if we could take a little bit and tell the story about the current ministry you’re at, and just a bit of your background, get people to introduce you a little bit, get to know you more.

Carey Nieuwhof — Sure. Yeah, you know, change has been the one constant over the 18 years that I have been in ministry. And it’s one of those things, Rich, that never goes away. So my story, my background, is I was not one of those people who ever thought I would be in ministry. When I was 8 years old, I decided I wanted to become a lawyer. I don’t know what needs to be wrong with you at 8 years old to want to be a lawyer, but it’s true of me.

Rich Birch — (laughing)

Carey Nieuwhof — So, I went to law school, and it was in the middle of law school that I really like, and I’m not a really a supernatural, charismatic person, but God intervened. And even though I was a Christian, and God made it very clear to me that there was a call to ministry. And it took me a few years to discern that. I finished law school.

Carey Nieuwhof — And in 1995 I came up to where I currently am, about an hour north of Toronto, in a little community called Oro, which you know, Rich. And I started with 3 small Presbyterian churches. My background was Presbyterian. We lead those churches through a significant amount of change over a decade. And then about 6 years ago, I left and we started Connexus Church. And, um that was a transition. Some of the same people but certainly not all of the same people, who were part of those Presbyterian churches went on to start Connexus, a church for unchurched people, and a North Point strategic partner. And even in that, even in the midst of that, there has been an awful lot of change in the last 6 years. So change has been the one constant, I guess. That, and Christ.

Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. Man that, ya know, I often say to people, “Carey, like I said, he’s just been through a lot.” Now what would you say, you know a lot of people who listen to this podcast are obviously leading churches of all different sizes, but I think we’re all trying to figure out how to change our churches. Right? We’re all, you know, I think as in, bred in leaders is this desire to say “Hey, we want to make things better.” Um, how have you navigated, what were some handles that you come back to, time and time again, you’ve seen, Hey, this is some of the things we have to do as leaders to kind of successfully navigate that change?

Carey Nieuwhof — Well probably, and I didn’t know this right away, but I figured out over time that change is actually a skill, and leading change is actually a skill, and the good news is that it can be learned. There are principles that just work. And I think sometimes leaders find themselves in a trap where they really want change—I don’t know a single leader with his or her salt that doesn’t want change of some kind – that’s what makes us leaders—but we kind of expect other people to buy into that change before we’ve sold it, before we’ve really delivered on it. And so we’re waiting for people to change and then we get frustrated because they don’t change. And I think there is something, at first it was just instinct, that told me that that was just wrong, like people do not automatically change, and people don’t like change. And so, it’s up to you as the leader, ah, to really show people a picture of a preferred future, and to lead them there.

Carey Nieuwhof — Now there are good ways to do that, and there are bad ways to do that. And you know the one question I got all the time, because our little Presbyterian churches what we did was, we started to grow, and um, we sold three historic buildings within 5 years, and we moved into an elementary school. And that elicited some opposition.

Rich Birch — (laughing)

Carey Nieuwhof — You give up everything that they had known for over a hundred years. I mean, these are beautiful little red brick, historic buildings, ya know “Anne of Green Gables” type churches. And they sold them and we moved into an elementary school in the name of reaching people. And then we built a two million dollar facility, and then we left it a few years later when we left the denomination to start over again in movie theaters. I mean, because we thought it would help us reach more unchurched people in a non-denominational context, and with the model of ministry that we wanted to run with. So that’s an awful lot of change, and people don’t just stand up and wildly applaud when you announce what your strategy is.

Carey Nieuwhof — So we did get a lot of opposition. The question I would get, and that’s a long way of getting to this question. The questions that I always got is “Did anybody leave?”

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — And there’s a point at which, “well of course people left!” Like, what do you think?

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — Everybody who’s in your church today is there because they like it the way it is now.

Rich Birch — Hmmmm.

Carey Nieuwhof — That’s something every leader…like everybody that’s at Liquid Church right now, where you serve, likes the way it is now. One way or another. Maybe they may don’t like everything, but they like something about it. So if you are going to change, there is an inherent alienation that’s going to happen with everybody that’s currently a part of your tribe. It just happens, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes.

Carey Nieuwhof — We liked it better when Rich didn’t do podcasts.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — Right? I mean, you have that. It happens in your tv shows where they start a new character and your’e like, well, it was so much better when they didn’t have that character. Yeah know, it’s like, people don’t like that. And so the opposition get’s intense. But what happens…Here’s one mistake that I’ll share that I think a lot of leaders make, and I had to figure out how not to make this mistake…We assume, because opponents are loud, that loud equals large, loud equals large.

Carey Nieuwhof — So because your inbox is blowing up, or because your congregational meeting didn’t go very well, or because you keep getting pigeonholed after the service, “Hey, can I talk to you?” There’s fingers pointing, you just assume. And if you listen to the opponents, they will always tell you, “Everybody’s upset with this”, yeah know? “I’ve talked to everybody”. Really, you’ve talked to everybody? Ok, just checking. And so they, you just assume as a leader, loud equals large.

Carey Nieuwhof — But if you actually do the math, if you actually go through it, we learned early on, we should just do the math here. Probably that loud group of your organization is probably about 10%. And in the worst days it might be 30. Maybe it’s 50. I doubt it. I don’t think it ever got to 50%…

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — …in our worst moments. Um, but they’re just loud. And so you just have to convince yourself, I have to do the math and wait a minute, am I going to sacrifice 90% of the population of our organization for the sake of 10% who are not content? And often the people who are opposed to your vision don’t actually have a competing vision for a better future. So if you ask them, so where, what do you want to do, what do you want to accomplish? They’re like, “I don’t know, it just can’t be that way.”

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Carey Nieuwhof — Well you can’t go back, you can’t go back. So what’s your vision for a preferred future? And often the answer is, they don’t have one. And so then really, ok, so you are going to listen to the 10% of the population that doesn’t have a clear destination, that actually isn’t going to make it better. It doesn’t mean they are bad people, they’re just not going to make it better. And you’re going to sacrifice and jettison your whole organization for the sake of that?

Carey Nieuwhof — And then, if you’re involved in the church, or you’re a business and you think about, well that’s my existing customer base, those are existing users. What about all the market out there? What about, in my case, unchurched people? You’re going to let 10 people in a church of 100 control the future of 100,000 people? You’re going to let 100 people in a church of 1000 control the future of 100, 000 people? Do the math. So those are some lessons I had to learn early on, and we were fortunate enough to try to figure it out.

Rich Birch — Well, Carey, this is why I love you talking about change, cause, ya know it just falls out of you. It’s like, OK, well there might have been a bit of opposition about selling three buildings and merging and all this stuff. That’s amazing. Break down to, you know, maybe a personal story, or a time you remember when there was a bit of opposition there, um maybe from a source where you didn’t anticipate it. How do you deal with that?

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Because it’s not so much, I think for leaders that it’s like, there’s that person you don’t like. Maybe it’s just you, but there’s always people in every church where I’m like ah, I don’t really like them.

Carey Nieuwhof — I’m not going to listen to them.

Rich Birch — But then there’s the people that are a little closer, um, ya know, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with, you know, talk about something personal?

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah. Well let’s do two ways. Number one, in the early days, you do get a lot of opposition, you get people standing up, emailing or pigeon-holing you or whatever. We learned as an elder board to ask this question, or two questions. Number one: Is there a Biblical argument in what they’re saying? Because if there is, I need to listen. And just ’cause I’m the leader doesn’t mean I always know best, doesn’t mean I speak for God. And wisdom does come to us, sometimes, even in the face of opponents. Even with your worst opponents, there might always be a grain of truth in what they are saying, even if their motivations aren’t great. So have the humility to listen, but the wisdom to only act on the things that really are going to determine a better future. The humility to listen, but the wisdom not to act on all of it. So, is there a biblical argument to what they are saying?

Carey Nieuwhof — Second question we learned to ask, and this one I still ask to this day is: Are these the kind of people we are going to build the future of the church on? Are they? And, um, in the early days, a lot of them were older, and there’s nothing wrong with older people. We have some very, very wise, older, senior adults in our congregation that we listen to. But sometimes, ya know, in our case, they were people we just couldn’t build the future of the church on. And even younger leaders, when you look at their lives, it’s like, I don’t really see a track record where you’ve accomplished a whole lot, or maybe your life, you sit in the critics chair all day long, and you say, this guy’s wrong, and that guy’s wrong. That’s just your life. You cannot build the future of the church on people like that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — People who are cynical, and negative and always opposed to something -you can’t build the future of the church on. Now, where it get’s tough, I remember about 10 years ago I had a letter from, and I haven’t talked about this publicly, but you asked so…

Rich Birch — (laughing)

Carey Nieuwhof — I got a letter from a key elder. She sent me a note and she just said, “I support you 100% and but this time I think you have gone to far.” And we were getting rid of the last of the old hymns. And I sat down with her and I mean we cried together, and I said, I just gotta disagree with you. I’ve gotta focus on who we are going to reach not who we are going to keep. And we tried to keep up our friendship, and she continued to serve in leadership. And I mean, I see her now, I don’t see her as much, our church is bigger and the whole deal. But whenever I see her, I get this huge hug and I mean, she’s well into her senior years now, but just an incredible woman.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Carey Nieuwhof — And sometimes I think you just have to work through that. And I think one of the reasons that people get out of sorts with wise leaders, often it’s not with your best people, it’s not a character issue, it’s not a mission issue, it’s not a vision issue. Usually it’s a strategy issue. And so sometimes if you get to the point where some of your best leaders are saying like, if I’ve got five great leaders telling me I’m wrong, I’m probably wrong. So this is not like, you just go ahead and you just blaze trails. Every once in a while you have a Moses moment where you are going across the dessert all by yourself, you’re speaking for God. But I think a lot of time leaders think they are in those moments when they are not.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — But if you get to the point where if you’re with a leader, if you can isolate that to strategy, and I think the disagreement between this great woman and me, was a strategic disagreement.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — And it was a lot of change at once. So when we work through the strategy, it was just one of those things where I just think that the style of music that we are going to do in the future is going to be more effective at reaching unchurched people, you can sometimes reach an agreement. Or at least you realize why you are disagreeing, at the time, and that one was tough. Actually that incident, combined with a really, really tough month, I remember it was November 2002, sent me to a counselors office for the first time ever.

Rich Birch — Wow!

Carey Nieuwhof — So that was very personal.

Rich Birch — Ya, absolutely! Now, does she continue to be connected to the ministry today?

Carey Nieuwhof — Absolutely! She was there last Sunday, will be there this Sunday, gives, serves, I mean…has a great heart.

Rich Birch — Ya know Carey, I think that commends, that’s a good personal story. I think sometimes when we talk about change, right, that’s amazing. It obviously really meant a lot to her, obviously meant a lot to you, that you can come to a point of disagreement, but still not break relationship, is amazing.

Carey Nieuwhof — I did a couple of her grandchildren’s weddings, you know.

Rich Birch — Ah cool.

Carey Nieuwhof — She had a big birthday and the family invited me, Toni, my wife and I were there last summer. I mean, you can work through those things, but I would say you just have to figure out why you are disagreeing. I know with our current leadership, we try to find people whose character runs deep and who we also have a great chemistry with personally. That often the misalignment happens, never on a mission or vision level, not in the church. We believe in Jesus, we love Jesus, He’s great, ya know we agree on that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Carey Nieuwhof — The disagreement is strategic. And if you can isolate that, you will often at least understand why you disagree and sometimes find agreement even in the midst of that.

Rich Birch — So now what would you say to a church leader that says, “I want to make a strategic shift this fall or early next year, and I’ve got a core group around me that agrees with that,” but they anticipate a bit of resistance. What are couple just practical tactics to start with – you know, it’s not going to be the whole thing….

Carey Nieuwhof — Right.

Rich Birch — But one or two little first steps toward that change.

Carey Nieuwhof — Number 1: Focus on why. I think a lot of leaders get tripped up on what and how. And so the reason…its what Simon Sinek says that people buy why you do it, not what you do. And I think that’s true. You know, every time you open your mouth as a leader you need to explain why. So lead with why. Pepper all your private and public communication, your written communication, your vision casting with why, and then talk about the what and the how. But why almost always unites, and what and how almost always divides.

Carey Nieuwhof — The other thing I would talk about is, Patrick Lencioni calls it cascading communication. You can also look at it in terms of communicating in concentric circles.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — So start with your core team where you actually get input, then go a little bit wider to your next level. So we have a level of government in our system, the North Point system, call MTR’s, Ministry Team Representatives. We’ll bounce change off them first. Like, hey, this isn’t a decision, we just want to get your input. And then when people who are close to you, and share your strategic alignment but aren’t necessarily around the table, when they get input, just like well what about this, or what about that, buy in is much higher. And then you sorta go to the crowd, you know, and then you go to the community. So start layering it. And you know what else, people love to be the first to know. If you can give them…

Rich Birch — That’s so true.

Carey Nieuwhof — ….an inside track and we’ve just really in the last year really ramped that up. It’s like hey, I want you to be the first to know that this is something we’re looking at. And really not keep any secrets. I think once in a while a personnel decision is something you don’t talk about, but we always say, there’s no secrets at Connexus. We’re not going to communicate this publicly yet, but you’re in the room and you can know….we’re negotiating with Cineplex Odeon on a permanent deal. You know, if you can make it public, do. And then people feel like, I’m part of this. They feel some skin in the game, some ownership, even before it get’s trotted out publicly. And when you’ve got a hundred people sitting in a Sunday service where something is announced and they already knew it, you’ve already got 100 evangelists for change.

Rich Birch — Oh totally. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Anything else on this change topic? There’s a lot here. You’ve written a book on it. Anything else that you want to make sure we get in?

Carey Nieuwhof — I would just say, you know the big goal, and real short, is focus on who you want to reach, not who you want to keep. And the biggest thing that I find hangs up leaders in the midst of change, is that you are only ever going to hear from the people that want you to keep them. You’re never going to hear from the people who you want to reach. Unreached people don’t randomly email you and say, hey if you did this I would come to your church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — They don’t do that. They don’t call you, they don’t text you, ya know, they’re silent. And so in the same sense that if you’re in a position of power, or influence, you need to think about how God wants you to use that power and influence and affect people who don’t have power and influence. I think when you are a church leader, or even if you are an organizational leader, you’ve got to think about the customer you haven’t reached, not just the customer you have. You gotta think about the person that isn’t in the room, not just the people who are in the room. And I think leaders that are able to maintain that focus and are able to share that focus widely in the organization are going to do the best when it comes to change, and creating a culture of change.

Rich Birch — Ya, friends, if I can just reinforce what Carey is saying, he actually lives out. A part of what I appreciate about Carey, his leadership, Connexus (their church), is when you cut them, they bleed “Hey, we wanna be a church for unchurched people.” That’s what they talk about all the time. They’re obsessed with it. Which really, I think does drive, like we were talking about there, leading with the why. It becomes the conversation piece – that is the benchmark upon which they judge everything. I appreciate Carey, your leadership, not only on the change, but then also on the focus of staying clear on that mission.

Carey Nieuwhof — I appreciate that Rich and you know just to encourage people, when we started to grow, most of our growth did not come from unchurched people. I’m 18 years into this. In the first decade it was probably about 30% unchurched people and 60% church growth. But that’s flipped. In the last few years, we’re 60% of our people are self-identified unchurched people. We don’t think, hey I think they are unchurched. They tell us they’re unchurched. And that’s great. And so remember that you can change something in 2 or 3 years, but it takes probably 5-7 years to transform it. And the transformation happens with change when it becomes part of who are and embedded in your culture. And so if you’re in the middle of change, don’t give up, you’re probably going to be most tempted to quit moments before your critical breakthrough.

Rich Birch — Alright, I said we are coming to the end but I have one more question I want to slip in.

Carey Nieuwhof — Go ahead.

Rich Birch — This is, again, a bit more personal. Do you feel, as you progress along in your leadership journey, just personally, you’re more open to change and more open to risk, or less? What is your own personal dynamics on that?

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah, you know what, that’s a great question and I’m kinda in the middle of that right now. I think as you get older, and I think the longer you’re in leadership, and the more successful you become, the more change-averse you become. Particularly if something is successful, you’re really worried about wrecking it. I also think we are in the middle of a massive cultural shift. You write about it all the time, Rich, and you’re up on trends like crazy. So the way I am looking at it now, and I hope to write another book. The third book in the change trilogy will be on creating a culture of success. But the early notes on that for me at least are, maintain what you’ve got but constantly innovate and experiment.

Carey Nieuwhof — You can experiment on the side, and I think an organization that loses it’s experimental entrepreneurial, let’s just preserve at all costs, you just coming close to the cliff. And it’s just only a matter of time until you fall off. So I think when you’ve got success, and you’ve got momentum, and we’re in a season of momentum right now, you want to make sure that yes, you’ve got to preserve what God has built and what you’ve accomplished, but never ever lose. So I am pushing myself to innovate and experiment and fail. But you have to fail in areas that isn’t…Sometimes you gotta fail in areas that might cost you the whole organization. But I think it’s smarter to experiment on the side.

Carey Nieuwhof — And so we’re doing an social media experiment right now, and we don’t even know whether it’s going to to work. But it doesn’t cost us $50,000, it costs us $5,000. And we’re going to find out whether it works. We’re always adjusting the sails, and always playing around. And we’ll play, like we are doing something off model for a North Point Church, you know, we are not being disobedient or whatever, but we’re just trying some stuff that we’re just experimenting with. And if it doesn’t work, you just shut it down. So I think you can lose that and I think the older you get, the more successful you get, older in age but also older as an organization and the more successful, the less you will innovate and the less you will experiment.