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Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Hal Mayer, a coach and consultant who works with pastors and business leaders to help them grow healthy teams without burning out. With decades of ministry experience and a background in coaching, Hal brings actionable insights into one of the most common leadership challenges: how to move a team from passive compliance to active engagement.
Are you carrying too much of the leadership load yourself? Feeling like you’re the only one coming up with ideas or pushing things forward? In this conversation, Hal shares a simple but effective framework to help leaders shift from telling to asking—and unlock the potential of their teams.
- Why teams become disengaged. // One of the most common frustrations leaders express is that their team feels stagnant or unmotivated. Hal suggests this is often not a team problem but a leadership problem. When leaders consistently provide the answers, shut down ideas, or unintentionally reward passivity, team members learn that their input isn’t needed. Over time, they stop contributing and simply comply. What appears as laziness is often the result of a system that has trained people not to engage.
- From answer-giver to question-asker. // Many leaders are promoted because they have strong ideas and can solve problems quickly. However, if they continue operating as the “answer person,” they eventually limit both their own capacity and the development of their team. Hal emphasizes that asking better questions is the key to unlocking engagement. Questions reveal what team members understand, help them think critically, and shift ownership of solutions back to them. When people help create the solution, their investment in execution increases dramatically.
- The Smart Ask framework. // Hal introduces a practical coaching framework called Smart Ask, designed to guide conversations that lead to action. The process begins broadly by asking, “What issues are you facing?” This allows team members to surface their own challenges and become more self-aware. From there, the leader helps narrow the focus by identifying one clear goal for the conversation—something the person can act on immediately. Next comes a pivotal question: “If you could try anything, what would you do?” This opens up creativity and removes internal barriers that might limit thinking. From there, the conversation moves toward selecting one idea, identifying potential roadblocks, and outlining specific next steps. By the end, the team member leaves with a clear, self-generated action plan.
- Why buy-in matters more than the idea. // Even a great idea will underperform if the person responsible for executing it isn’t fully invested. Conversely, a slightly weaker idea can produce better results if the team member has full ownership and enthusiasm. Engagement drives execution. When leaders consistently choose their own ideas over their team’s, they unintentionally lower buy-in and limit results.
- Coaching toward self-leadership. // Over time, consistently using questions develops leaders who can think and solve problems independently. Hal describes the ultimate goal as “self-coaching” where team members begin asking themselves the same questions and generating solutions without needing constant input. This not only reduces the leader’s workload but also builds a stronger, more capable team.
- Balancing development and delegation. // Hal cautions that delegation is not the first step. Rather, it’s the result of development. Leaders must invest time in coaching and guiding their team before handing off responsibility. Skipping this process leads to frustration and failure. However, when leaders take the time to develop people through intentional questions and feedback, they create a foundation for effective delegation and long-term growth.
- Recognizing true engagement. // Leaders can spot engagement by watching for energy, initiative, and ownership. Engaged team members proactively solve problems, follow through on ideas, and bring solutions rather than just concerns. In contrast, disengagement shows up as slow execution, repeated questions, or a lack of enthusiasm. These are signals that more coaching, and better questions, are needed.
- Leading with humility and transparency. // For leaders who recognize they’ve been over-directing, Hal encourages a simple starting point: acknowledge it. Telling your team, “I’ve been giving too many answers, and I want to change that,” creates trust and opens the door for a new dynamic. This kind of vulnerability invites feedback and helps reset expectations for how the team will function moving forward.
To learn more about Hal Mayer and his resources—including Smart Ask and The Coaching Playbook—visit halmayer.com or find his books on Amazon.
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Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you are tuned in to today’s episode. Man, we’ve got something super helpful for us. It’s one of these areas that many of us spend lots of time doing, but we maybe haven’t taken a step back and think thought about what do we do in coaching relationships? We all are involved in coaching staff and people on our teams. And today we want to help you with some practical steps to make that even better.
Rich Birch — Excited to have Hal Mayer with us. He’s a coach and consultant for both businesses and business leaders and pastors who want to grow but don’t want to burn out. He’s authored a few books, including “Smart Ask”, “The Coaching Playbook”, and excited to have Hal on the episode today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.
Hal Mayer — It’s good to be here, Rich. I’ve been a fan on the sidelines for years, and unSeminary was so good because I did the seminary thing, and I did all the stuff, and you’re right. There’s so many things we didn’t talk about there that you help us prepare for, so thank you for what you’re doing.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s super exciting. That’s kind of you to say, but I’m I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. It’s been a while coming and so excited. We bumped into each other at the Exponential conference this year.
Hal Mayer — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Shout out to Exponential. I was like, we got to get you on. So excited that you’re here today. Well, why don’t we kind of start. Give us kind of the Hal background. Tell us for folks that don’t know, you know, you give us the kind of the 90 second, this is who Hal is conversation.
Hal Mayer — Yeah, I, ah goodness, was born up north, came to faith in Georgia in high school. We moved down there, played basketball in college, and then coached for about five years. Married Sandy, moved off to seminary, finished that up, and I’ve been in Florida since ’84, serving in churches from the size of 200 to 12,000.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Hal Mayer — So all over the yard, and also do some business coaching in the middle of that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Yeah. And I’m, I really, that’s really what I want to tap in today. You spend your days coaching both pastors and businesses leaders, like we talked about that.
Rich Birch — When, when someone first sits down with you, I want to kind of use the fact that you have a lot of these conversations today to help our listeners kind of take advantage of you. When someone first sits down with you, what’s like a common version of stuck that you hear, whether it’s a pastor or maybe a business leader, like do you hear common themes with folks.
Hal Mayer — Yeah, you know, probably the most common thing I hear is our team’s stuck, our team’s stagnant. And I’ll say, what do you mean by that? And they’ll often say something that relates to this of, I have to come up with all the ideas. It seems like I’m the only one pushing the team to get going. I’m the only one with the ideas. They just seem often lazy, or they’re not doing it. What do I do to engage them?
Rich Birch — Right. Love that. Well, man, I wish I hadn’t thought that. I haven’t thought that as a leader over the years. What what, so then take us the next step from there. What what, as you’re kind of coaching someone, I’m assuming as a leader, you know, I, or one of my convictions is our teams are a by-product of our leadership…
Hal Mayer — Yeah.
Rich Birch — …and we’re leading in a way that’s leading them to act that way. So what what leads our people to be like that?
Hal Mayer — Yeah, I think it’s the leader. And that’s the fun thing to do. As a parent, I loved watching my kids do something that was dumb, but they repeated it, and it’s because it was rewarded.
Hal Mayer — So I watch team members disengage because they come up with an idea and it gets shot down. Or they ask everybody in the room the idea and it’s only the leader’s idea they go with. And when that happens, they they kind of go, well, I guess we’re just here to hear his ideas. And they start pulling back and not engaging and just being compliant.
Rich Birch — Interesting. I remember years ago we had a coach in who said who said to us, this is when I was on the senior leadership team of a fairly large church, fast growing. We were like four or 5,000 people at the time. And he spent a bunch of time with our ah you know with our team, with us.
Rich Birch — And ah he looked at us and he said, listen, you guys answer way too many questions. You need to be asking more questions than answering questions.
Rich Birch — And that was a pivotal you know changing moment for me as a leader. I was like, oh, Oh my word, that is so true. Talk us through that dynamic of, you know, asking the right questions versus always being the answer man or the answer person.
Hal Mayer — You know, we usually get promoted because we did the job well or we have the answers. If we continue in that framework, one day we will run out of the answers, but let’s say we’re in that framework. I’m not developing anybody if it’s only my ideas we’re using. And if we’re only using my ideas, they’ve got ideas, but they’re dying. So what I encourage and push guys to do is exactly what you said, ask questions.
Hal Mayer — I mean, questions will do a couple things. One, it will tell me what they understand. I mean, do they really understand the problem? I say, tell me what’s going on. Okay. What do you see here? And all that. It tells me, do they understand the problem? And I may have to probe some more, but I want them solving things that I find out about later. And to do that, I’ve got to lead different.
Hal Mayer — For me, we were in a fast growing church in South Florida. And I was the answer man. And what I realized was I’m working harder and harder and I’m not developing people. So I started stepping back and then learning this principle and started asking questions, looking for their engagement. Here’s what I found. When they had the answer or they got to do what they wanted to do, their engagement went way up.
Hal Mayer — So for me, not only did it go up, they began to develop. And I’ve had somebody say, well, I don’t have time to develop people. He said, in fact, if I develop them, they’ll just leave me. I say, yeah, yeah you know, it’s worse is if you don’t develop them, they stay, right? Right.
Rich Birch — Right. Exactly.
Hal Mayer — So I found this to be a tool for development: asking questions.
Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool. I, like talk to me more about engagement. What would be some telltale signs for you of like someone who’s really engaged, fully engaged versus, you know, when your team isn’t as engaged? Because maybe we’re having a hard time even discerning what that looks like.
Hal Mayer — Yeah, I I mean, if they’re slow walking the solve that we came up with, if there’s no passion around it, if there’s no energy going in it, and I find myself even answering the same question over and over, I’m realizing more and more, I don’t have engagement. I’ve got compliance. And I really want them engaged and dialing in to what we’re doing. And to get that, I’m going to have to get them on the same page.
Rich Birch — Well, and then obviously questions are at at a core of this. And a part of what I love about your resource, “The Smart Ask” or just “Smart Ask” is this framework, it’s it’s, you know, it’s simple…
Hal Mayer — Yes.
Rich Birch — …but powerful. So why don’t you kind of talk us through the Smart Ask framework? What’s kind of the basic arc that you try to walk someone through?
Hal Mayer — Very good.
Rich Birch — Coach us through that. Talk us through what that looks like.
Hal Mayer — I start very broad and I’ll say, and by the way, I take notes, but at the end I give them the notes and I’ll explain that in a minute.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Hal Mayer — So I’ll I’ll ask permission, can I take some notes? And they’ll say, sure. And I say, I’m going to give them to you. But our first question is, what are the issues you’re facing right now? And let them just elevate them out. Let them say everything they want to say, every problem they’ve got.
Hal Mayer — And then I’d say looking at these problems, is what’s one goal that we could have for our time today? Now, what that does is it focuses it on a goal and what they’re going to do, not on me. It can’t be, how could you find me 10 more leaders? That’s not something we can do in that meeting.
Rich Birch — Right.
Hal Mayer — So I want a goal from them, something they can do when they leave the meeting. And so they say, you know what? I want to face this volunteer engagement. In fact, I use the illustration from the book about a preschool lady who said, I need 30 more volunteers to serve in preschool. And I said, well, I can’t get that for you now. So her goal was come up with an idea that I could engage 30 more people. And then I’d go with this.
Hal Mayer — Okay. If you could do anything, what would you try? Yeah. And of course, the first, she says, anything? She said, yeah. She said, I’ll pay them $1,000 a piece. I said, okay.
Rich Birch — Right.
Hal Mayer — And I just write it down to go ahead and get that out and get them moving on to the next thing.
Rich Birch — Right.
Hal Mayer — And they run through things. And I listen, I’ve got to be careful not to go, oh, that’s a really good one. But let them talk about it. And as they get through, if I’ve got something at the end, I mean, as they’re going, I’ll go, anything else you could try? Anything else you could try? And you feel like you’re asking that too much, but what you’re doing is just unpacking all of it. If I’ve got an idea, I can add that in, but I don’t give any passion to it because I don’t want to control.
Hal Mayer — Then I’ll say, now look at these. Which one of these ideas would you like to explore further? And they’ll look, and this lady said, I want to explore the one about a lemonade stand in the lobby, which I thought was a dumb idea. I didn’t tell her that, but I thought, aaaah.
Rich Birch — Right.
Hal Mayer — So then I said, okay, what potential roadblocks? Well, I’ve got to talk to leadership. Okay, what else? And they talk about that. And any detours?
Hal Mayer — Well, if this happens, we’re walking through solving the problem before it approaches, right? And then the last thing I said, okay, if you’re going to do this, what will it look like? And we list out six or eight things. And I say, okay, let me know like it goes. And hand her the paper. In this case, I said, hey, listen, let me know on Instagram how it went.
Rich Birch — Oh, nice.
Hal Mayer — So the next week she picked up 40 new workers. And this was a very large church.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Hal Mayer — She picked up 40 workers with this idea, because it was hers. And to me, it was crazy. It worked.
Hal Mayer — But so the the framework is you’re starting broad and you’re narrowing down. And I’m actually getting a set of to-dos and objectives. One, two, three, four, five. Then I hand them that. They’ve got their plan. All going to do is execute it. And they develop it when I’m asking them questions.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.
Hal Mayer — Now, let me tell one of the advantages of that too.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Hal Mayer — If I use that enough with them, there’s going to be a time when they come to me and say, and want to talk to me and I’m not available. They’ll say, well all he was going to do is ask questions.
Rich Birch — Right.
Hal Mayer — And they start going through the questions and they start self-coaching is what they do. And that’s the end game. That’s what I want. And by the way, when I use questions with people, I explain to them what I just did. So they can then take it and use it somewhere else.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I’d love to start right back at the beginning.
Hal Mayer — Sure.
Rich Birch — I love this idea of really starting at a wide open. Hey, what challenges are you facing today? I think too often if we’re, I’m thinking in kind of the one-on-one situation, maybe I’m an executive pastor at a church of 1,500. One of my people comes to me and I go to that conversation, and I’ve got five things I want to talk to them about.
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — But I love, you know, starting with what challenges are you facing? What happens if we skip that with people? If we if we don’t start there, I’m sure we get, you know, we end up in all kinds of bad places. Talk us through why you encourage people to start with that question.
Hal Mayer — Especially early on when you’re coaching folks, because as they go later, they’ll kind of work through that, no, that’s the framework I’m going to work with. And they’ll come up with their biggest issue. But the reason I do that, I want to show this value to everything they’re facing. And I want them to elevate it, not me tell them what they’re doing, so they become more self-aware.
Hal Mayer — Now, if they don’t list one of the things I see as an issue, I may say, and what about this? Is this an issue for you? Oh, yeah, that too. I just don’t want to put a lot of passion on it because then they’ll do what I want. And I want them to do something they’re passionate about because the framework just means I’m going to get more from it.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. That that’s a key lesson. I think particularly for first-time managers or people who haven’t managed a lot of people before, we don’t realize the weight of our voice, right?
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — If we, you know, even by saying like, oh yeah, you’re right. That’s a good idea. Then all of a sudden they’re running with that idea just because you indicated it. That’s an interesting thing. That’s interesting.
Rich Birch — Now one of the, I mean, you kind of pulled it apart, but I would love to double click on it there. To me, as I go through your framework, I can imagine, that, hey, “what if you could try anything” is a is a pivotal moment, is kind of a turning point, it is an important question. Why is that and so important? Maybe give us another example. I love the idea when you talked through with the lemonade stand, but talk us through why that’s so important and what does that unlock as we’re interacting with our teams and people?
Hal Mayer — That’s a great question because what will happen there is if we don’t ask that question, ah it’s “what if you could try anything”, they may be in the back of their mind have something they go I can’t try that. So they keep trying to think somewhere else. Just get it out on paper.
Hal Mayer — It’s like when I feel stressed or something, I just list everything that I’m dealing with and then I can focus on one thing.
Hal Mayer — But I allow them to get it all out at that point of trying this and trying that. And usually what will happen is they’ll come up with six or seven ideas. And I say, “and what else” a lot? And it seems like I’m saying a lot, but is when they’re in the zone, they’re answering, well, could try this. Well, could try that. I could try this. And then I find which one they have the most energy around because that’s what they want to do.
Rich Birch — Yeah. And obviously you would, you observe that, that energy and you’re like, Hey, it seems like this one, tell me more about that.
Hal Mayer — No, no I don’t I don’t do that.
Rich Birch — Oh okay. Okay. Talk to me about that.
Hal Mayer — What I do is I say, okay, which one of these seven things would you like to try?
Rich Birch — Okay.
Hal Mayer — Once they identify it, then I say, okay, tell me more about that. What would that look… Why do you want to try? And and then we dive into that.
Rich Birch — Okay. One of the things that this strikes me, and this, when I read, again, friends, you should pick up a copy of of this book and there’s a playbook as well I want to talk about. But but I think this could be ah a huge gift for…Just this week, two days ago, I was talking to somebody who, they asked me, they said, hey, what should I be doing in my one-on-ones? I’ve got these staff, what should I be doing with them? And I thought of this framework.
Rich Birch — So I think the part of what I love that you’re driving towards is is buy-in. At least my, my my impression as an outsider looking in is that this would really increase the buy-in of my staff. Talk me through, you know, the connection there between buy-in and moving the organization forward and that sort of thing. What, how does that help us think through those issues?
Hal Mayer — Yeah. I’m going to bring up the equation I use in the book, the buy-in equation, or the engagement question, whatever that is. I was a math teacher in a former life. So PBI, possible value of an idea, times BI, the buy-in, equals their ROI.
Hal Mayer — Now, let’s say, you know, we’ve we’re we’ve got, you’re my boss and I’m doing student ministry and you have an idea because you did student ministry and all that. Your idea out of one 10, it’s going to at least be a nine. I mean, you’re Rich Birch. I mean, you have all the answers.
Hal Mayer — Now me doing it, I don’t get any input on it. So I will comply. I will do it, but my buy-in is probably going to be about a three. I’ll do what you ask, but there’s not going be a passion with it. So 3 times your 9 idea is a 27.
Hal Mayer — However, let’s say I come up with an idea and it’s not going as good as yours. In fact, it’s a only two thirds as good as yours. It’s a 6, but what’s my buying going to be if it’s my idea? It’s a 10.
Rich Birch — A lot higher. Yeah.
Hal Mayer — That’s a 60. So there’s a 60 ROI to my buy-in because of my buy-in as opposed to a 27. Now you had the better idea, but buy-in is what gets it done. We’ve seen that over and over again. When people are bought in on something, they often they’ll make a bad idea work. We’ve seen that.
Hal Mayer — So for me, that’s what I want. I want full engagement. And when they know that they get to do their ideas, people are much more engaged than they’re running around doing mine.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true. As a coach, somebody who obviously I coach people full time now and and that is you’ve you’ve named something there that I think is critically important and that oftentimes like I can’t coach people who don’t want to be coached.
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — Right? Like if they’re not bought in, if they don’t think this will help. And, you know, I’ve said in other contexts, I’ve been like, man, the the leaders who who apply the frameworks we’re talking about are seeing great results. And those that are applying, the majority of them are seeing, but a lot of it is just their own buy-in on these issues.
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — There might be a leader that’s listening in today that’s like, okay, this all sounds good, but like, what if my people just have bad ideas? Like, and if, if it’s going to push us in the wrong direction, like it’s one thing to be like, tell me seven ideas. All seven of those are crappy and they’re going to, we’re going to end up somewhere where I don’t want us to end up as it. How do I steer somebody back towards better direction?
Hal Mayer — Yeah. One the things before I give people full leash or full run on something is I want to check out their readiness for it. For example, if I want to do brain surgery, I may be excited. I may have done AI search on it and Claude said, do it this way and all that. But I’m not ready for that. It wouldn’t take but a second to find that out. I found that out in high school. I went, so I worked at a gas station where they actually worked on cars too. And I saw a guy fixing the valve. So I went home and took my 1960s Comet and tightened the valves down and ended up having to get a valve job.
Hal Mayer — I was excited. I was passionate, but I wasn’t ready. So if you don’t have people who are ready, you cannot hand it off to them. They must be developed some. They’ve got to have some experience. To hire somebody in fresh who’s never done it before and start leading with questions is like leading me with questions in how to operate. I wouldn’t have a clue. I’d be most excited about cutting. No, stop.
Hal Mayer — However, questions also help draw focus. And sometimes the reason they don’t have ideas, is we haven’t focused them.
Hal Mayer — I learned this with a physical metaphor. Somebody told me it would work. My son, pretty good basketball player. I had him out driveway. I said, son, see how many shots you can make out of 10? And so what that basically did was put a little pressure on, right? And he’s a good, so he shot four out of 10 from the three point line.
Hal Mayer — I said, okay, let’s forget about how many you’re making and just shoot and answer my questions. I said, okay, what do you notice? All right, what do you notice about the ball? What do you notice about the ball? He hit 10 in a row. And what I discovered was, you know, you college athletes who will shoot seven out of 10 in a game, but in practice hit 20 in a row. It’s the fog of war or whatever.
Hal Mayer — And so with employees, sometimes we haven’t asked enough questions. to get through that. However, we could also have some people who aren’t ready to lead. It’s not fair to expect them to come up with good ideas. They haven’t done anything. So both edges on that.
Hal Mayer — And at the end of the day, all of the employees I have are my fault. And if I haven’t developed them, that’s on me, right?
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Talk to me about, so I feel like there are, lead there’s leaders on our teams or there’s people that are listening in today that think they’ve got buy-in, but they really actually don’t. They think their teams are really with them, but they don’t. How, what advice could you give us to try to spot the difference around buy-in that’s not actually there? Like I keep kind of bumping into this wall. How can, how can we spot that?
Hal Mayer — You know I look for people who are solving problems. Are they solving them and telling me about it later? Are they coming to me with every problem? Because that means I’m still solving. Buy-in has to do with the passion and the ability to finish something. It doesn’t mean you work until 9 o’clock every night, but it does mean you manage to get the ball across the line.
Hal Mayer — So when I watch a lack of energy around an idea or somebody slow walking it. Or maybe somebody asking questions that really aren’t, that are just curmudgeon questions. They’re asking questions just to find every hole that’s wrong. I mean, everything that you can find, well, suppose that doesn’t work. Suppose… That’s not buy-in because for me, my challenge is always, don’t tell me what won’t work or tell me what’s not working. Give me an idea of what we might try. At least then we’re thinking in solutions and not just problems.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s really good. So a big part of scaling any organization, a growing church, a growing business is delegation, is leaders figuring out how to give away things they’re doing. I’ve said this in so many contexts, you know, roll this clock forward. The majority of what you’re doing, we need to figure out how to give to someone else…
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — …how to empower a volunteer or another staff member to pick that up. How does asking better questions change the way we hand off responsibility to other people? How how does it help in that transaction?
Hal Mayer — You know, I’m a big fan of Ken Blanchard and the book “Situational Leadership”.
Hal Mayer — And I used to train that with a corporation. And one of the things I watch is people like to start people and like to delegate. But when they leave off the coaching in between, it’s not delegation, it’s abdication. And people fail.
Hal Mayer — I go, what’s wrong? They said they understood. Well, you stay engaged. I mean, you give them a task. You stay engaged. You’re asking questions. Soon, you’re no longer asking questions to to help them figure out what to do. You’re just asking questions to draw focus. And then you know they’re ready. You can hand it off to them.
Hal Mayer — But you’re right. If we’re not finding a way to delegate, but delegation is not the first step nor the second. It’s more like the fourth, right? You watch me. We do it together. I watch you. You’re doing it. However you want to call that. But it takes more engagement.
Hal Mayer — People say, well I don’t have time for that. Well, here’s the deal. You can pay me now or you’ll pay me later. But you’re going to pay me. If you’re if you’re not developing people, you’re going to run into a system where you’ve got a bunch of people who don’t know how to think and do. And that’s on you.
Rich Birch — True. Yeah, that’s so true. And if we don’t start that process, hey, you watch me, we do together. And if we don’t start that process today, we’ll never get there. And so it takes time. But we’ve got to, you know, that’s, that’s what it we just constantly have to repeat that over and over and over in our areas. I love that.
So let’s talk more specifically about the books specifically. So it’s “Smart Ask: Questions that lead your team to win.” Where can we pick up copies of this? If people are looking, because I think this is not a huge book. It’s, you know, if you’re watching on video, it’s just a little thin one, but it’s got, it’s one of these ones. It’s a quick read. You could literally give it to a team member and say, hey, let’s read through this. And then we’re going to talk about it next week. I’d love to get your thoughts on it. But talk to us kind of, when why did you put this together in a book form?
Hal Mayer — Well, I was training it and people kept asking me questions. And the only reason I write books is to stop answering all the questions I get asked, right? Is to put it out there. I mean, Seth Godin’s idea of a long tail, right? I want it to last when when I put a book out there.
Hal Mayer — So “Smart Ask” is on Amazon, but it was created for the purpose to to help people, after I’ve used it in coaching, to be able to take it then and train their teams. Because it dives in also to the why it works and and such as that. But you’re right, intentionally a short book because I like short books and there you go.
Rich Birch — Well, and we all, you know, I can say this as an author, that we’re tempted when we write to be like, well, I’m just going to stuff a bunch of other stuff in there.
Rich Birch — But this is, it’s to the point, it’s it’s focused, it’s a great training material, I think, like you say, for you know for our entire team.
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — But then you also put together a playbook. Talk us through how this is different than just the standard book.
Hal Mayer — Well, my daughter-in-law, Chrissy, Chrissy Mayer, married to my son. She’s a pastor over to church in Tampa, Grace Family Church. And she said, why don’t you create a handbook for it? And you know what I said? Why don’t you do that?
Rich Birch — That sounds like a great idea for you.
Hal Mayer — So I said, that sounds like great idea. Once you create the framework, I’ll get it published on. So she did the work and we got together and we put it there. And the reason for it is you can take your coaching conversation, it has all the questions in it. It’s got lines you can write answers. And it gives you a chance to keep up. And I would probably take a picture and send the person they’re the the answers they gave to the questions or whatever like that. It just helps you stay on track. So you’ve got all the questions right there.
Rich Birch — And yeah, talk us through the the handing off of the notes back to someone. I think that’s a great move.
Hal Mayer — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Talk us through why that’s important. Why is that such a critical piece of the puzzle?
Hal Mayer — Well people are so used to us building files on them. And you’re going to put that in my file to show that I didn’t know what to do? And so I asked for permission on the front end to take notes. Now, if I’m the boss, I’ll do take notes if I want to. But I I won’t and I won’t if they say no, though. So I’m I’m really giving it to them. And I tell them, I’m going to give you these at the end because I don’t want them taking notes. I want them talking. I want their full engagement with me. And you can’t get that while they’re writing.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Hal Mayer — So I said, you just pay attention to me. I’ll take the notes and I’ll give you them at the end. Then you hand them at the end and they’ve got their execution plan.
Hal Mayer — So my meeting with them, usually it’s a 30-minute meeting and land with an execution plan that gets handed to them and they go back and do the work. So it pulls them into full engagement. They’re not getting distracted by trying to write down everything or slow play that way. So I’m taking notes again, putting value to them.
Hal Mayer — When when they’re the hero, right, and I’m the guide, what I’m doing is is setting them up. And when you take notes on somebody, that means something to them.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Hal Mayer — So that’s where I am.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Now, what about, so one of the tensions I have found in my one-on-ones is wanna make sure that I’m doing all the other stuff: caring for them, you know releasing, you know I guess, finding barriers that that I can pull apart for them and say like, hey, here’s some stuff. Yeah, I’m gonna take some to…
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — And I’ve said to my team in the past, hey, I’m hoping that you don’t walk away from this with a bunch of to-dos. That’s not the the goal of today. I want to help you. And I know you got a lot going on. I don’t want to just dump on you today. And so how do you avoid that in this framework that we don’t end up with? Okay. Every time they meet with Hal, now I’ve just ended up with a plan that I just, gosh, I just gave myself more work to do. How do you, how do you, do you understand that tension?
Hal Mayer — Yeah, I don’t do this every meeting with them.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Hal Mayer — The meetings on there. And I, you know, I’ll check in. How are you doing? One the things I i really want to pay attention to is the emotional, soul, health of the individual.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Hal Mayer — Because we’ve got people facing burnout today. So I’ll ask them, you know, tell me on a scale of one to 10, what are you feeling? You feel like you want a 1 being I want to go home and go to bed, a 10 being let’s charge hell with water pistols. Right, that gives me a framework. The number doesn’t really matter. I just compare it each time to see if they’re tanking.
Hal Mayer — The second thing I’ll ask for is give me a win in your private life, in your home.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Hal Mayer — Give me a win in your ah ah ministry side because I want to get them on the positive run. And then I’ll say, anything you need from me. And this may be 15-minute meeting. But what it is is I’m checking in on them. If I have something I need them to do, sure, I can tell them. But I’m checking in on them, and ah that gives them value, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s really good. That’s good. I love there’s, friends, as you’re listening and you can tell Hal’s done this a few times. And so, you know, it’s been such a great conversation for you. So if if I’m a church leader listening in today and I feel like, man, I’m doing way too much telling and not enough asking, where would I, and and maybe even my team has told me this.
Hal Mayer — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Where do I start? How do I start to shift that dynamic with my people? Because because you you you kind of set this up at the beginning of like the teams that are passively disengaged, they’re just waiting for for you to give the list of, okay, go do these 12 things and then come back. How do I shift that dynamic? Where do I start? If i if my analysis is, I think that I’ve actually done that to my team, ah where would we start?
Hal Mayer — If I’m convinced of that, I start at this place and I’ve done this before. Guys, you know what? I’ve been running our meetings and coming up with the answers and that’s not fair. So what I want to do is pull back more and get your engagement. So I’m going to be asking questions. I need your engagement in this meeting and your ideas coming. And in fact, if you see me over talking, catch me one-on-one afterwards and give me some feedback because I’m open up the feedback loop then, right?
Hal Mayer — But I will do some self-disclosure and just own it because here’s what I do know. If you don’t own it, they won’t recognize the difference later. For example, if I tell somebody, you know what, I’m going to work on asking more questions. Six months they go, wow, you’re asking more questions. If I don’t tell them, they’ll never at they’ll never notice. Sometimes you have to highlight it. Hey, I’m going to stop being the guy trying to be the smartest man in the room, and I’m going to do this.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Mayer — People get, vulnerability from a leader is a great thing, right? Own their stuff, but come up with some resources ah to help them, so so you’re asking more questions.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I like that. I like i think that’s a keen insight, that not just like shifting the behavior, but actually pointing to it like, hey, as a person, I’m changing. And the implicit, the great kind of ninja move you’re doing there is like, and therefore I need you to change because, you know, what?
Hal Mayer — Right. Right.
Rich Birch — I’m changing because I don’t think this is working. Implicit in that is I don’t think our relationship is structured correctly and we need to figure out a different way to do that. You don’t even need to necessarily say that. But but flagging that, hey, I need to change my approach, I think is a really smart move for sure. That’s you know that’s fantastic.
Rich Birch — Well, as we’re coming down to land today’s episode, any kind of final words around this idea of asking, leading with questions rather than being the answer person all the time?
Hal Mayer — Yeah, this model doesn’t mean you don’t ask offer suggestions. This model doesn’t mean you couldn’t collaborate to build it. It just means you can’t be the person always having the answer.
Hal Mayer — And it’s engaging other people. And the thing you will find for me that I have found, when I truly am asking them for their ideas and we execute on their ideas, they’ll come back later and say, you know, I thought that was one of those conferences you went to that said ask questions.
Hal Mayer — But you actually did execute on what we talked about. Then they’re more engaged because everybody wants has ideas and wants to be heard and wants to be a part. I think people are motivated. They’re just not motivated when we take over a meeting and and run everything, right? There’s an intrinsic motivation. There’s there’s something they want to do. They’re in ministry, not because they’re just wanting to plow through. They want to see a difference. Well, they’re in the business cycle.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s very true. And I think that’s a good reminder for us. I think sometimes we can get caught in the weeds of running Church World and we forget that like all these people have chosen to be here. They could be doing something else.
Hal Mayer — Right.
Rich Birch — And how do we bring the best out of them? And how do we, you’ve encouraged me to thinking about long term the long-term win, that really engagement, even if we have to walk through a couple of things that maybe are not the best, because… But if I can get engagement up with my team, man, that’s way better place than like, sure, we have the, it’s the, you know, it’s that perfect plan that’s poorly executed. We want to avoid that, you know, even an imperfect plan. But if it’s got tons of engagement behind it, man, there’s some gold there that we need to think more clearly about. That’s good. Love it.
Hal Mayer — Yep.
Rich Birch — Well, I want to send people to Amazon to pick up both of these. I think it’d be great. I really do think this could be the kind of book you could build a staff training around it, friends, really easily. You’ve got 15 staff. You could buy 15 copies of this and say, hey, you’re going to read this. And then we’re going to come to our you know team meeting in two months or whatever in a month. And we’re going to work through how do we ask better questions in our our training. That’s how it sticks out to me. Anywhere else we want to send people online to connect with you or to pick up copies of the book?
Hal Mayer — You can catch my web website at halmayer.com. They can email me at [email protected] or I’m on the socials just as Hal Mayer. I, my son is Hal Mayer also, but I beat him to all of them. So I’m Hal Mayer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. It’s just /halmayer. So I win there.
Rich Birch — Nice. Really appreciate you, Hal. You’re a good friend of leaders and I appreciate you being on today. Thanks for being here.
Hal Mayer — Thanks, man. It’s been an honor.
