Your Church Will Get the Crisis Call. Are You Prepared? with Rebecca Maxwell

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Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Rebecca Maxwell, a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Jacksonville Counseling Services. With 15 years of prior church ministry experience and now leading a growing counseling practice, Rebecca brings a unique perspective that bridges biblical truth and clinical insight.

Are you feeling unprepared when people come to you with deep emotional or mental health struggles? Wondering how to respond wisely without overstepping your role? In this conversation, Rebecca helps church leaders better respond to crises and care for people in more informed and effective ways.

• Why pastors often feel unprepared. // Rebecca reflects on her years in ministry and recognizes that many church leaders simply lack the training needed to identify and respond to mental health challenges. While pastors are often the first call when someone is in crisis, most have received minimal formal education in this area. As a result, well-intentioned leaders can miss important warning signs or unintentionally cause harm. Rebecca emphasizes that pastors don’t need to become therapists—but they do need a basic framework for recognizing distress and knowing how to respond appropriately.
• Slow down before you try to solve. // One of the most common mistakes leaders make in crisis situations is moving too quickly to solutions. Offering Scripture or advice immediately—while well-meaning—can sometimes shut people down if they don’t first feel heard. Rebecca encourages leaders to practice the “ministry of presence”: allowing individuals to tell their story, expressing empathy, and bearing witness to their pain. This approach helps regulate emotions and creates space for truth to be received later, when the person is more grounded and able to process it.
• You don’t need all the answers—but you need a plan. // A critical takeaway for church leaders is the importance of knowing where to turn for help. Rebecca stresses that leaders don’t need to be experts, but they must have a resource network in place. This includes vetted counselors, crisis resources, and trusted professionals they can contact when situations escalate. Without this preparation, leaders may feel stuck or overwhelmed in high-pressure moments.
• Addressing misconceptions about mental health. // Rebecca also addresses a harmful but common belief in some church contexts—that mental health struggles are simply a sin issue. While sin can play a role, this perspective oversimplifies the complexity of the human mind. She explains that just as the body can become ill, so can the mind. Ignoring this reality can lead to shame, misdiagnosis, and ineffective care. Instead, churches need a more integrated understanding of people as whole beings.
• Why the church must engage this conversation. // If churches remain silent on mental health, people will seek answers elsewhere—from social media, AI tools, or secular sources that may lack biblical grounding. Rebecca urges leaders to step into this space with confidence and compassion, offering both truth and practical support. The church has an opportunity to be a trusted starting point for healing—but only if it is equipped to respond.
• A practical next step for every church. // Rebecca strongly recommends that anyone working with people receive basic crisis training, such as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer). This short training equips leaders to recognize warning signs, respond appropriately, and guide individuals toward help. It’s a simple but powerful step that can literally save lives.

To learn more about Rebecca Maxwell and her book, Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health, visit JesusAndYourMentalHealth.com and download a sample here. Explore additional resources at jacksonvillecounseling.net.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in today. You’re gonna be rewarded for that. I know that the conversation we’re having today, that this week, probably four or five times, you’ve thought about issues adjacent to this, and it’s gonna be super helpful. We are leveraging an expert. We’re gonna take advantage of this person to really help you this week and to help you solve some real problems.

Rich Birch — Excited to have Rebecca Maxwell with us. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She started Jacksonville Counseling Services in 2015 to serve her Florida community with counseling services that integrate best practices with a biblical foundation.

Rich Birch — The cool thing about Rebecca, well, there’s lots of cool things about her, but one of the cool things about her is prior to her voyage into marriage and family therapy, she spent 15, not 50 years in…

Rebecca Maxwell — I look amazing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. …in church ministry with children, adolescents, and family. So it’s just a great background, dual background for us to kind of tap into today. Rebecca, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, glad to be here, Rich.

Rich Birch — Apologize for the 50 year. That’s…

Rebecca Maxwell — Hey, I mean, I look good for doing this for 50 years.

Rich Birch — Yeah exactly. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of a background? Tell us, fill out that, you know, bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, so I’m married to a pastor, but I want to just be clear that I was in ministry first.

Rich Birch — Yes. Good. Good.

Rebecca Maxwell — I fell I fell into ministry ah after getting a degree in management from Georgia Tech…

Rich Birch — Okay.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and the Lord just kind of opened some doors, and I had to figure out what that was going to look like. Started in ministry to teenagers, youth. And did that faithfully for many years and also did a little bit of adult discipleship and kids ministry along the way, kind of got my training as I went along.

Rebecca Maxwell — And there was a there was a point where God was just really beginning to lay the foundation for a different direction, a new call. And I spent a couple semesters in seminary trying to figure that out and ah didn’t think that was where the Lord was taking me to finish that training. And a friend, honestly, this was the best question I’ve ever been asked. She asked me, Rebecca, what do you love about youth ministry? What’s the favorite what’s your favorite part of your job?

Rebecca Maxwell — And I said, you know, I love talking to teenagers and their parents about life stuff. And she said, well, I think you’d make a great counselor. And so that was the that was the the great question that got me in the direction of seeking more training in counseling. And I did marriage and family therapy because I was working with family so much…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and really believing that the health of the family was so important to the health of the kids. And the kids were really like my driving force in what I was doing.

Rich Birch — So cool.

Rebecca Maxwell — So that it took me in that direction and along the way got to do some cool things in ministry and now working alongside churches in Christian, biblically based, also clinically informed counseling.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so I have a practice in Jacksonville of there there’s about 18 of us now. And along the way, God gave me an experience that allowed me to to really know that I needed to be distinctively Christian and biblically based in my practice, that that was going to be important for my community. And so that’s that’s what we do. We try to bridge the best of psychological science with what the Bible says…

Rich Birch — Yeah, so good.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and serve our community.

Rich Birch — Well, friends, you can see why I’m excited to have Rebecca on the on the call today, because I think, well, there’s a lot there, but there’s you know this idea of of being clinically informed and biblically based. I think you have a lot to help us think through these issues you know as pastors, as leaders. You know We’re wrestling with these kinds of questions all the time.

Rebecca Maxwell — Of course.

Rich Birch — We’re thinking about all of these things, referring people, and all this this comes up all the time. So you spent 15 years in church ministry before going down this road of being a licensed therapist. What did you see during those years as you reflect back on that time that made you realize, hey, maybe maybe church leaders need more help in this space? I’m declaring that I think we do. So, you know, I’m putting those words in your mouth. So, you know, don’t you know don’t be offended, listeners. That’s me saying that. But what do you what do you think?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, I think that I didn’t know what I was seeing when I was in ministry with some students and their families. I just knew that there was distress…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and I didn’t know why in some cases. And not everything was a mental health issue, but I certainly missed a lot of those. I didn’t know how to meet kids and families who were in like mental crisis moments.

Rebecca Maxwell — So, you know, my husband has been all the way through seminary. And so I know that he took one class in pastoral counseling that I helped him with.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so this is a big issue in our community. And I don’t think that church leaders are generally well-equipped, like broadly.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — I know there are there are more and more church leaders who are doing a deeper dive into understanding mental health and mental illness. But I would say by and large, the training isn’t there. And the problem with that is that people, parishioners, are going to go to their church leaders first when they’re struggling because they’re trusted. They’re a trusted source of on life. And so if our folks aren’t trained well, they can unintentionally cause harm. And I want to emphasize unintentionally…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …because nobody wants to miss something or cause harm. And, you know, they may accidentally just miss things. And, you know, suicide continues to be on the rise. And we don’t want to miss the pleas, the cries of a desperate person. And we also don’t want to minimize those.

Rebecca Maxwell — We don’t want to give, you know, Christian euphemisms that don’t really address and see what’s going on deeper. Because not people don’t always show you what’s going on deeper right in the beginning. So a little bit of training goes a long way. And I know having been there and even now today, like we just don’t have enough, enough knowledge.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And church leaders are never going to be master’s level therapists. That’s not I’m asking for.

Rich Birch — No. Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — But I think we can have a better partnership to help each other.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s good. Well, let’s, let’s start. I want to come back to the the suicide question in a minute.

Rebecca Maxwell — Okay.

Rich Birch — So I want to put a a bookmark in that and come back to that. Cause there’s specifically, I want, I got a couple of questions around that, that I’d love to get your thoughts on. But let’s go back to that idea of pastors getting the first call. Many of us have been in on that, right? We get the, you know, a family’s in crisis mode. Something’s falling apart. I can’t, I can’t deal with this situation.

Rich Birch — In fact, actually, I’ve used this yeah as like an example when training campus pastors where I’m like, there’s, you know, when someone calls you with a crisis call like that, what you say in the first 30 seconds matters.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like actually that, you know, even on the phone, you know, hey, you know, so what, what happens, talk to us from your perspective, what, what usually happens in that conversation or what, where, where could that go sideways? How do we, how do we end up maybe intentionally we’re trying, unintentionally we’re trying to help, but we, things just don’t go right because we do something dumb, you know, in the, in the first little bit.

Rebecca Maxwell — Well, think all of us are problem solvers. And so we want to give someone a solution to the thing that they’re experiencing.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so that’s where we can like well-intentioned, we can kind of drop people. Because if we too quickly try to just point them to a scripture or give them a truth, which is true, we can tell them some true things about who God is and, and where he’s working and those sorts of things. And again, it’s true. But sometimes in that moment, it’s not helpful.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — Sometimes a person needs to get out a little bit more of what they’re experiencing and just have someone to bear witness to their pain, right? And we see this in the scripture. Jesus did this over and over where he he he spent that time with someone to kind of bear witness to their pain before he sent them in a different direction.

Rebecca Maxwell — And obviously we need both of those. I don’t want people just swimming around in the pain forever either. That’s not helpful. But I do think we move too quickly sometimes when we get that first call. You know, we just want to solve that thing.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — And sometimes we just need to kind of slow down and the and give the ministry of presence.

Rich Birch — What’s a good way, maybe maybe put a bit more kind of practical bones on that. I love that idea of the ministry of presence. Hey, we’re just going to, my job right now is just to be here with you. Talk us through what that looks like.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, I think it’s allowing someone to get their story out. And sometimes that’s not convenient because sometimes it’s long, you know.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — So to get their story out to and to be listening for the strengths and the positives that the person might be saying but isn’t quite aware of.

Rebecca Maxwell — And actually…

Rebecca Maxwell — you know, this, this happened yesterday to us.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so maybe like a story will help.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s great.

Rebecca Maxwell — Someone called in to our main office line and got one of actually my personal assistant, didn’t get the clinical admin, but got my personal assistant. And asked the question, if I kill myself, will I go to hell?

Rich Birch — Wow.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. And my personal assistant knew enough to reach out to our team right away. And so I was able to help kind of walk her through what to do. And some of the things that I told her were just keep this person talking, right? Ask about their life, all aspects of what’s going on. Let them get their story out. Because what happens when we put words to our experience and someone bears witness to that is the emotions don’t have such a grip on us. They kind of relax a little bit.

Rebecca Maxwell — And my assistant told me that as she was able to kind of just continue to keep this this woman talking, that she could just, over the phone line, experience kind of that release, that she got a little bit of relief, not ultimate relief…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …but a little bit of relief just in telling her story. And my personal assistant, I was able to walk her through listening for the strengths, listening for the positive things, that then you can come back around to. Not minimizing or negating the struggle, but bringing more balance to the truth. Because because then when they when they calm down and they’re more in their logical brain then you’re able to deliver truth in a way that they can grab onto.

Rich Birch — That’s good. Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — But when they’re heightened and they’re in such distress trying to kind of speak truth in that moment just kind of bounces off of them. Does that make sense?

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, there’s that moment of like it’s like that fight or flight thing that’s going on in our brain, right?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yes.

Rich Birch — Where we’re just like, I just want out of this situation…

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …whatever’s happening to me…

Rebecca Maxwell — Yes.

Rich Birch — …and and none of us make, you know, wise decisions in those moments.

Rebecca Maxwell — No.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s amazing. How did your, well, first of all, like, I think all of our churches have got a call like that, maybe not exactly that one, but you get that call that’s like, whoa, this is, this is heavy. And particularly, yeah, so so how how did your, how did your assistant know what to do in that moment? How did you, like, that doesn’t, is that under other duties as assigned? How does, how did you, how are they prepared for that?

Rebecca Maxwell — Well, I think one, she doesn’t have the clinical experience, but she is a believer and she’s walking with the Lord and she has the ultimate power source within her. So she knew to immediately start kind of praying in her spirit as she was talking.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And then she knew where to go. She knew who to call on.

Rebecca Maxwell — And I think that that’s another important concept for church leaders is: Who are you going to call on in a crisis?

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — When you are sitting with someone who is actively considering ending their life, or they’re just in a really, maybe they’re not at that point, but there’s they’re dealing with something else.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — Who are you going to call on? You don’t, I tell church leaders, you don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t have to know exactly what to do and where to where to point people, but you have to know where to go to resource yourself.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — And that’s what my personal assistant knew.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — She knew how to resource herself, how to get some help. And so I was able to, you know, she’s on the phone and I’m texting her questions and things like that…

Rich Birch — Right. Okay.

Rebecca Maxwell — …so she knew where to go. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. You know, a best practice i’ve we’ve seen in many churches, ah but I’m surprised, I still am surprised that when I bumped into churches and they don’t have this, is like a resource list of like, here are some trusted counselors, some trusted people to talk about. Talk to us about that from your side. You’ve seen both sides of that equation. How do we develop a list like that? How do we how do we make that available? How do we how do we do that in a way that is most helpful for for our team, for maybe our staff, or for people who are just at our church.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, it takes a little bit of time, but there are resources in your community. You just have to find them, usually.

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — And there are some purely online resources as well. I think the first step is probably gaining some understanding of the different types of clinicians who are out there…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and and what they’re best suited for, what issues they’re best suited for.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — You may have someone in your congregation who is a counselor. And so that might be a good first step is to get them on board to help you create a vetted list to what should I be asking when I want to partner with someone?

Rebecca Maxwell — Because it’s one thing to say, I’m a Christian and a counselor. It’s another thing to say, I am counseling from a biblical framework. I’m counseling from a biblical worldview. And so you know, understanding how to make that distinction, you know, someone in, in your congregation may, may have the ability to do that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — But just how to ask the right questions so that you can begin to build a resource list of, like I said, we are biblical worldview clinically, like informed. And so you, you want to have some people like that…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …because we are operating under the license of our state. We have a code of ethics that we’re following. We have oversight. And I think that’s really important. You also have biblical and pastoral counselors that are some are very, very well trained. But you need to understand like what that lane is…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and what is a more clinically informed lane. And so, and a lot of people don’t have that understanding and rightfully so. Right? There’s so many different practitioners and we don’t, we don’t really know who has kind of what skills and what’s appropriate in their lane.

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. you got to do a little bit of research around even the language that’s used, you know, the difference between like a life coach and a counselor…

Rebecca Maxwell — Right.

Rich Birch — …and a therapist.

Rebecca Maxwell — Right.

Rich Birch — And, you know, like, and, you know, be a little bit suspicious of people if they’re like, hey, I want to get on that list. And are there any from your—give us the inside scoop—are there any red flags that you would have? Let’s say I’m reaching out, I’m talking to a number of therapists in my community and, if somebody says something or is there something that, you know, I want to be wary of, of, ohh I’m not sure we necessarily want to point people in their direction?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, I think this is a more subtle one.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — But I think when someone says I’m a Christian, but you know, I really don’t bring that into my practice at all.

Rich Birch — You want to ask some follow-ups?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, let’s ask some follow’s ah some follow ups.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.

Rebecca Maxwell — Because in general, and I’ll kind of expound on this particular one…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — …regardless of what the clinician’s faith background is, we are trained to um to bring up a person’s spiritual part of self as part of holistic practice.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — Unfortunately, a lot of clinicians are just leaving that part out completely.

Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — Because of politics and taboos and, you know, and we don’t want to get in trouble sometimes with our our licensing boards, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — But we are all trained to see a person holistically. And we would, in in my field, we would say bio, psycho, social, spiritual—biological, psychological, social/relationships, and spiritual. But we’ve we’ve kind of left out the spiritual. And so, we should all, no matter whether you’re a Christian or not, we should all be asking and inquiring about a patient’s spiritual life.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And that’s a really easy open door. So if someone says, you know, I’m such and such, but I don’t…you know, I really don’t bring that up and in counseling at all. I understand that they’re afraid to, and there’s, I understand.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell —But you really want a clinician who’s not afraid to inquire more generally about a person’s spiritual life.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And I think that’s a big one.

Rich Birch — Yeah. And the combo of doing that in a licensed environment, you know, so you’re getting kind of the best of both worlds there really makes a lot of sense. Like, Hey, were, you know, I understand why, you know, that makes, that makes sense. That’s a good, that’s a good line there.

Rich Birch — So kind of a different, it’s related, but different train of thought. I know there are churches out there that have like a, a negative view on on like mental health…

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …on mental illness, on counseling in general. They they it gets really black and white. And they’re it’s like, like I have a family, yeah, I have a family member who their pastor told them, you know, it’s just totally a sin issue and like and

Rebecca Maxwell — Yes.

Rich Birch — They had been struggling with issues for a long time. And, you know, that was a huge weight on their on their life…

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …that they carried, you know, for a well into their kind of 80s, late into life. And talk to us, unpack that for us. Like I think that’s just a dangerous approach, but help us and understand that mindset. Why is that dangerous? What’s behind that instinct?

Rebecca Maxwell — I think that I think the instinct is probably good that the Bible gives us everything we need for life and godliness.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And I think sometimes it’s just potentially a misinterpretation of just a holistic understanding heart, soul, mind, and strength of a person. That the mind…because in Deuteronomy, it, it, it doesn’t say heart, soul, mind, and strength that comes in Jesus words in, Mark. And I think also Luke, But in Deuteronomy, it’s heart, soul, strength. And so mind is not broken out in that original text.

Rebecca Maxwell — And then I believe that it is broken out and listed in the New Testament because I really think Jesus wanted to highlight that. And we see, I mean, the mind is talked about about 180 times in the New Testament. And so it’s a really important aspect of us.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so think that unintentionally the mind is not considered distinctly and is maybe not seen as an object of brokenness and illness in the same way, right? Like we see, obviously we see if the pancreas doesn’t work properly, we have diabetes, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — Or we get cancer and obviously that’s not our fault. But the mind is the thing we have the most control over. And so think people think that that’s just a sin issue. You just need to stop or do something differently. And we don’t have the full understanding, especially because science is still understanding the interplay between the mind and the physical brain…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and how they interact with each other. And so I just don’t think a lot of people have kind of caught up with understanding that, you know, that is a distinct part of self that can be broken, just like the body can be broken.

Rich Birch — Right. Just like having a broken leg or whatever.

Rebecca Maxwell — Right.

Rich Birch — Yeah, and that I think that’s a great that is a great transition to, you’ve actually written a book on this that I’d love to unpack a little bit. You use this you know whole self integration—heart, soul, mind, and strength. It’s kind of at the core of what you’re talking about. Why don’t you walk us through that framework a little bit more? The book we’re talking about is “Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health”.

Rich Birch — I would love people to pick up copies of this. We’ll get to that in a bit, but kind of unpack how that those four inform the framework of the conversation in this book.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, so it’s really like setting our thinking on holistic health and putting mental health right inside the framework of whole self. So we do things to, we do things to help our physical health and our spiritual health and our relational health. And so we probably ought to be thinking about the health of our mind. You know, again, it’s mentioned 180 times plus in the New Testament.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Rebecca Maxwell — So it must be pretty important, this renewing of our mind and how we go about that. And this idea that we’re integrated. So our mind impacts our body, impacts our soul, and our soul impacts our body, impacts our mind, impacts our relationships. Like it’s all integrated.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And we can utilize some of the healthy habits of the other three parts to help our mind. And we can utilize this thing we have control over our mind to impact the other parts of self. And we know this just anecdotally in our own lives, right? Like very simple things like when my dad taught me to throw a softball, he had me point at the target and direct my body…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …and my mind and my eyes in that direction. And then the ball went there.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — Well, we can use that concept, you know, in all of mental health, you know, where we direct our mind, the rest of us follows.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so really just understanding that integration and how we can use it for the common good and not, not separating this mental health and continuing to stigmatize it as, you know, sin just a sin problem. I think that’s where we go wrong, is that if you have and a malady of the mind, it’s really a sin problem. Sometimes it is.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Rebecca Maxwell — But it’s a little more complicated than that as well.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, it it seems like there’s a false dichotomy in a lot of leaders’ minds around, um well, it’s exactly were talking about, Bible and psychology, Bible and therapy. Like there’s there’s like those two things can’t interact with each other. Which which side of that equation do you experience more? Like, is it more from like church leaders that are skeptical or is it more from maybe leaders who are from outside the church who you’ve mentioned this already, who don’t pursue kind of the spiritual conversation? Which of those do you see? Cause I can see it from both sides where I’m like, oh, I could see on both sides of that conversation.

Rebecca Maxwell — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — People are like, and then we’re not meeting in the middle. And that’s why it’s great that you exist and why your organization exists. So, uh, talk to us about where do you see the pressure more from?

Rebecca Maxwell — I really see it on both sides, honestly…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …just kind of like you’re describing, you know. Secular psychology really wants to leave out, you know, spirituality and um any, any, really any firm truth, you know, absolute truth.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Rebecca Maxwell — And then the church, because of that, a lot of times just in general, we’ll be like, well, we got to throw all of that away because it’s not useful at all.

Rich Birch — Right, overreact.

Rebecca Maxwell — And I just, I don’t, I don’t think that’s helpful. We, we utilize science, scientific concepts in our everyday life. And so we, you know, we need to find the the good and the truth in what, you know, research based psychological science is showing us because there is some common good there, just like there is in, you know, other discover scientific discoveries.

Rich Birch — Well, I I think this is a great resource. I’m so glad you’ve put this book together. And I’d love to talk about how you could see it being used. I know for me, and we’ll link in the show notes actually to a sample of the book. So you can, you don’t even have to buy anything. Just look at the sample to start before you buy it. I so I thought this could be a great resource for us as like a staff team to read through as kind of like a, hey, here’s like a primer on some of these issues for us to be thinking about, even just to kind of frame the conversation to be thinking about these things.

Rich Birch — Who are you picturing as you put this together? What’s what’s your kind of vision for how you hope this resource will be used by churches?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. When I wrote the book, I was picturing someone kind of like me and my friends who are, you know, love the Lord, love their families, are trying to help their families live in health in all aspects of their life. And as I was writing it, what I realized with also some prompting of my pastor was that this could be a really great resource for equipping churches.

Rebecca Maxwell — The very people that I wrote it for, the mamas, you know, in that are serving in the church and very involved, but also church staff and volunteer leaders, because what I’m trying to give people is really a grounding for how to think about mental health and mental illness from a suffering, you know putting it in like a suffering standpoint. And then equipping them with a ton of scripture to back up the understanding of the mind and the brain and how to have a healthy mind, what happens when the mind isn’t healthy and then some common both some common roots of mental illness, including trauma and family of origin issues, and then some, some really common problems in the area of mental health, anxiety, depression, grief, and loss, so that people can be equipped with a resource that they can hand to someone, or they can say, Hey, read chapter seven on anxiety…

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — …you know, and someone is going to get a biblical understanding of where anxiety shows up in the scripture. How Jesus shows up in that? What are some practical ways that psychological science gives us to deal with that? What does the Bible say about how to deal with that? And let’s kind of put all of these things together.

Rebecca Maxwell — So they’re really going have both just under an understanding of grounding in mental health and also some practical ways to address those issues. And then really ending with like, hey, how do you know when you need more help than what this book can give you?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Rebecca Maxwell — And how do you find the right person to help you?

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic. Yeah, there’s, you know, just even as I’m flipping through looking at the chapters, like just so much helpful stuff in here, identity and self-esteem. Who does Jesus say I am? Attachment. How did my childhood impact my relationship? Trauma. That’s a word we hear all the time.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Where is Jesus when that happened? And I think there’s just, this is gonna be so helpful for so many leaders to check out and and to and to use as a resource.

Rich Birch — I think this is the kind of book, like you said, I could picture, hey, I got five copies of this and I’m gonna end up in a conversation where it’s maybe not somebody that’s in like an immediate crisis right now, but they maybe their kid is wrestling with these issues. And on top of, yes, I’ll meet with them, I’ll pray with them. And yes, here’s the list of counselors, but like, here’s a book to read as well to help you think through this. I think this could be incredibly helpful for people.

Rebecca Maxwell — I hope so. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, where where do where can people get, if they want to get copies of this book, where do we want to send them to pick up copies of this?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, anywhere books are sold online. So Amazon and Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target, places like that. And folks can reach out to me about getting like bulk copies.

Rich Birch — Oh, great.

Rebecca Maxwell — They may already have places they get bulk books, but they can reach out to me to get that. I have some other resources like discussion guides that I am happy to give if people reach out to me – discussion guides and other just resources for folks that maybe, I’ve had a bunch of people reach out because they want to kind of do a book study with their disciple group or things like that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell — So, you know, my goal really is to equip the church. I want the church to be the the trusted source where people can come to and begin a healing journey. And so I think this will help equip people in the church, both, you know, paid staff and lay leaders to to really help people.

Rich Birch — If people want to reach out to you, where where do we want to, where do we do that? Where do we want them to do that to? To reach out to you?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, the best is probably my website, JesusAndYourMentalHealth.com.

Rich Birch — Love it. That’s great. I want to talk about that trusted source idea that you just referenced there. This conversation is a conversation that’s happening in the broader culture. It’s just happening, right?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yes.

Rich Birch — Like it’s, you you know, you open up, I read The Economist all the time. Every week in The Economist, there’s some sort of article that is, if not directly talking about this, it’s connected to it. What happens when the church in general just stays silent on the mental health issues? What happens if we if we don’t engage this? Kind of inspire us a little bit.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, well, there’s a lot of noise. And so people are going to go to TikTok and Instagram and even ChatGPT…

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Rebecca Maxwell — …to get there their information. And they’re not always going to get biblically informed information.

Rich Birch — Right.

Rebecca Maxwell —And that’s why it’s so important that we’re equipped because people are coming to churches more and more for practical guidance on the stuff that they’re actually going through.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — And the Bible is not silent on the practical stuff. And so we want to be well-equipped to go to the scripture with them and to point them in the right direction and to give them some kind of guardrails and guidance for finding help. Otherwise, it’s like you’re kind of floating out in this sea of information. I wouldn’t even say knowledge or wisdom, but information.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rebecca Maxwell — And you don’t really know where to anchor.

Rich Birch — Bullet points. Checklist. Yes. Yes. Five steps to.

Rebecca Maxwell — Right.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s yeah, that’s ah yeah, that’s so good. It’s interesting on the AI thing. There’s but bunch of studies that have shown that’s really the primary use how people are using ChatGPT, particularly. They’re using it as like a counselor.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And um I I mean, there’s like that’s dangerous. So it’s incredible. Well, this has been a great conversation. Any kind of final words you’d say as we wrap up today’s discussion?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. You know, kind of, I think the thing I want to leave people with is a little bit of where we started in the beginning, which is managing crisis. Something that’s really, I think, important for anybody working with people is to get trained in how to prevent suicide. And there is a training called QPR instead of CPR.

Rich Birch — Yeah, let tell us about this. Yeah, yeah, tell us about this. Yep.

Rebecca Maxwell — It’s QPR question, persuade, respond. And it’s like an hour long, maybe 90 minute online training or anyone that works with people can be trained in how to basically do CPR for people that are having a mental health crisis that could literally save lives. And the skills that are taught in that are transferable to people that aren’t in crisis.

Rebecca Maxwell — And so that’s the thing I mostly want to leave. Like there’s a lot of information to be found. And obviously I would love people to get my book, but I really want everyone that works with people to be trained in how to respond to people who are having a mental health crisis, how to know what to say, how to persuade them to get help. I think that, you know, we could, we’re, we could really save lives there.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s, how do we go about finding QPR training? Like if we, I think this is, again, what a great takeaway. You’ve landed this great takeaway right here at the end, even for our staff teams. Let’s get that on our schedule.

Rebecca Maxwell — Totally.

Rich Birch — Like I I think about the people that are answering the phone at the church. I’m like, I was thinking about that earlier when you were talking about your assistant. I’m like, man, I want to make sure that they get the kind of training because, you know, I don’t want to fumble that ball. So where, where do we, where would people find training this QPR training?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. You can find them online. I think it’s qpr.org, but I’m kind of looking it up as we speak because I’m like, dang it, I should have had that reference.

Rich Birch — Right. Yep. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. ah

Rebecca Maxwell — QPR.

Rich Birch — No, no, that’s okay.

Rebecca Maxwell — It’s QPR. qprinstitute.com

Rich Birch — Perfect. QPR Institute.com.

Rebecca Maxwell — qprinstitute.com

Rich Birch — Great. Perfect. That’s, that’s fantastic. Well, Rebecca, I really appreciate you being on today and helping us serving us. I want to make sure folks, again, the name of that book is “Jesus and Your Mental Health: Linking God’s Word and Modern Science to Find Peace about Mental Health”. Grab that at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. We’ll put links in the show notes to that. We’ll put links in the show notes to your website, anywhere else we want to send them online so they can track with you or with the book?

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah, our our practice website is jacksonvillecounseling.net.

Rich Birch — Perfect.

Rebecca Maxwell — So we only really can practice in Florida, Texas, Colorado. That’s where we have.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rebecca Maxwell — But we do have a blog, a mental health blog on there. I have a podcast called Jesus and Your Mental Health. So those are some other resources just, you know, to get more information about mental health concepts. You know, we all love a good podcast and bite-sized learning on something.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Rebecca Maxwell — So those are a couple couple couple extra things for folks.

Rich Birch — Well, Rebecca, I appreciate you being here today. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Rebecca Maxwell — Yeah. Thanks, Rich.